TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[rbt]

Automatic train control...

Right now, someone sits in a seat controlling the subways and streetcars, and the future LRT. Will there ever be a point that there is no one in that seat?

The driver will still be watching for people too close to the edge of the platform, on the track (including workers), obstructions on track (like flooding), etc. So the answer is that for the foreseeable future there will always be someone in the cab.

ATC is a driver efficiency improvement tool like anti-lock brakes rather than a driver replacement.


Before Vancouver installed security cameras it wasn't uncommon for people to toss obstructions (cardboard, newspaper, etc.) at trains without riders. This would inevitably shut-down that section of the line for 20+ minutes while staff drove to the location to take a look. Automation doesn't handle exceptions very well (yet) and the cost of a TTC subway outage is higher than the cost of the staff.

 

[amnesiajune]

The driver will still be watching for people too close to the edge of the platform, on the track (including workers), obstructions on track (like flooding), etc. So the answer is that for the foreseeable future there will always be someone in the cab.

First of all, there's already one person who does that and a second person who drives the train. ATC gets rid of one of those two people - the Sheppard Subway and SRT already have this in place.

Second, it's still pretty dumb - what makes Toronto different from cities like Vancouver, Miami, Paris, Copenhagen, Barcelona, et al.?

 

[W. K. Lis]

First of all, there's already one person who does that and a second person who drives the train. ATC gets rid of one of those two people - the Sheppard Subway and SRT already have this in place.

Second, it's still pretty dumb - what makes Toronto different from cities like Vancouver, Miami, Paris, Copenhagen, Barcelona, et al.?

Except that there's no screen doors on the platform. So someone is needed to watch out for "debris".

 

[downtownordinary]

It looks like they've begun construction of elevators at St. Patrick Station to improve accessibility. Are there any plans available for this work? There's hoarding up on the median on University just north of Dundas and this morning there was a small backhoe. Is that where they're adding the elevator?

They're also preparing to board up a section of the platform with stacks of drywall on site.

 

[amnesiajune]

Except that there's no screen doors on the platform. So someone is needed to watch out for "debris".

Vancouver doesn't have screen doors. Lots of stations in Copenhagen and Barcelona don't have them, and neither does the Paris Metro's Line 1.

 

[DSC]

It looks like they've begun construction of elevators at St. Patrick Station to improve accessibility. Are there any plans available for this work? There's hoarding up on the median on University just north of Dundas and this morning there was a small backhoe. Is that where they're adding the elevator?

They're also preparing to board up a section of the platform with stacks of drywall on site.

Always a good idea to check the TTC site...

St Patrick Station - Easier Access Project - utility investigation and hoarding installation
February 11 to March 2017
TTC’s Easier Access Program will make subway stations accessible to everyone. Preparatory construction at St. Patrick Station is scheduled to begin in mid-February.

Utility investigation
As early as February 11, 2017, crews will begin preparatory utility work within the sidewalk and roadway.

Hoarding installation on University Avenue (north) island at Dundas Street West
In preparation for heavy construction of the future concourse level to platform level elevator, protective hoarding will be installed on the University Avenue (north) island. The protective hoarding will be in place for the duration of the Easier Access project.

Street furniture (benches and waste bins) and vegetation on the island will be removed and restored when the project is complete.

Pedestrian, transit and traffic information
Long-term and temporary traffic lane closures and sidewalk detours will be required on University Avenue and on Dundas Street West in the vicinity of the intersection, in order to complete heavy construction safely and efficiently. Subway service at St. Patrick Station and 505 Dundas streetcar service will continue throughout the project.

Noise and vibration
Nearby residents and businesses can expect to hear noise caused by core drills and hydro-vacuum trucks.

Work hours
Work will generally take place from 7 a.m. to 11 p.m.

For further information:
Denise Jayawardene, Community Liaison, 416-393-6937, denise.jayawardene@ttc.ca.

 

[micheal_can]

ATC is included with the new signal system. This vote had nothing to do with that. Unless they changed it (again), it was to set up a secondary (and I believe also tertiary) control centre to monitor and dispatch the subway.

And no, there will never be a point at which there is no one on a train. The system - in the sense of the trains, tunnels, track, etc. - was simply never designed for that, and it would take far too much money to retrofit.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

This was not related to the vote. This was something I was wondering.

How is the system not designed for it? What specifically makes it impossible?

The driver will still be watching for people too close to the edge of the platform, on the track (including workers), obstructions on track (like flooding), etc. So the answer is that for the foreseeable future there will always be someone in the cab.

ATC is a driver efficiency improvement tool like anti-lock brakes rather than a driver replacement.


Before Vancouver installed security cameras it wasn't uncommon for people to toss obstructions (cardboard, newspaper, etc.) at trains without riders. This would inevitably shut-down that section of the line for 20+ minutes while staff drove to the location to take a look. Automation doesn't handle exceptions very well (yet) and the cost of a TTC subway outage is higher than the cost of the staff.

Have one person at each station. Oh, wait, there already is an attendant sleeping int he booth...

First of all, there's already one person who does that and a second person who drives the train. ATC gets rid of one of those two people - the Sheppard Subway and SRT already have this in place.

Second, it's still pretty dumb - what makes Toronto different from cities like Vancouver, Miami, Paris, Copenhagen, Barcelona, et al.?

Vancouver doesn't have screen doors. Lots of stations in Copenhagen and Barcelona don't have them, and neither does the Paris Metro's Line 1.

My thinking too... What makes Toronto's system so bad that full ATC cannot be implemented?

 

[drum118]

Will TTC be next to do this??

Here's What TfL Learned From Tracking Your Phone On the Tube

 

[steveintoronto]

Vancouver doesn't have screen doors. Lots of stations in Copenhagen and Barcelona don't have them, and neither does the Paris Metro's Line 1.

Or the Docklands Light Railway. Or the Victoria Line. In fact, here's what London is planning:

By Nick Collins, Transport correspondent, UK Telegraph

12:48PM BST 09 Oct 2014


London Underground has unveiled how its next generation of "driverless” trains will look – but insisted they will not operate automatically when they are first introduced.

Images of the new tube, which will feature air conditioning, walk-through carriages and wider doors, were unveiled by Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, on Thursday.

But although the trains have been designed to be fully automated, TfL announced that they would initially have drivers, in the same way as the DLR, when they first come into service in 2022.

Only when entire fleets of old stock have been replaced in the mid-2020s will trains begin running automatically without drivers, and each will still have a member of staff on board.

TfL said the 250 new trains would allow services to become faster, more frequent and reliable as well as boosting capacity on all four lines.
[...]
The Picadilly Line will be the first to host the new trains, which have been designed by London firm Priestman Goode, followed by the Central, Waterloo & City and Bakerloo lines.
[...]
"In the end these will be driverless trains but that will not mean that they will be staffless trains," he said. "There will always be a train captain on board. There will always be someone to help you."
[...]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...w-driverless-tube-trains-unveiled-by-TFL.html

• Barcelona Metro line 9 without train driver.
• London's Victoria line trains - 2009 stock.
• AirTrain JFK system.
• Vancouver Skytrain system.
• Rapid KL - Sungai Buloh-Kajang Line, one of the train that operate in fully automated, driverless train.

List of automated urban metro subway systems - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_urban_metro_subway_systems

Interesting article on driverless freight trains here:
http://www.railway-technology.com/features/featureare-driverless-freight-trains-safe-5008616/

I must admit to an uneasiness of 'driverless trains'....but when's the last time you rode an elevator with an operator?

 

[AlbertC]

73 TTC employees fired so far in ongoing benefits fraud scandal

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...so-far-in-ongoing-benefits-fraud-scandal.html

 

[amnesiajune]

73 TTC employees fired so far in ongoing benefits fraud scandal

This doesn't have a whole lot to do with the TTC - they defrauded the insurance company that covers TTC employees, but that doesn't cost the TTC any more than it costs everyone else who buys health insurance.

 

[muller877]

73 TTC employees fired so far in ongoing benefits fraud scandal

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...so-far-in-ongoing-benefits-fraud-scandal.html

Good. I hope they also go to small claims court to get the money back.

And it's often the companies money, not the insurers. It is normally an "ASO" policy where the insurer administers the policy but the company pays all the claims or there is an experience refund mechanism where the company pays a large premium but gets a refund if the claims are less than expected. This is 90% or so of the large group policies in Canada. I assume the TTC does something similar.

So likely this is the TTC's money that the employees are stealing. (i.e. ours as the taxpayer)

 

[smallspy]

How is the system not designed for it? What specifically makes it impossible?

It's not impossible, just really, really expensive.

The long and the short of it is that if you are doing away with all onboard crews, you are now going to force the passengers to rely on themselves to get themselves off of the trains and out of the tunnels safely in the event of an accident. That means better lighting, way more signage (and keeping it cleaner than it is today), more emergency exits, fewer tripping hazards at track level, etc.

All that stuff is easy to build into a line when you're starting from scratch. But if you're retrofitting it, it can get very, very expensive very quickly, especially the emergency exits.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[amnesiajune]

I don't think a train evacuation during rush hour would be any different when there's no staff members, one staff member (as there will be with ATC) or two (as there currently are). A lot of it depends on first responders (TTC staff and police) quickly getting to the train to help. That's why there's an emergency entrance/exit whenever there's more than a kilometer between two stations.

They're usually discreetly tucked away behind some trees or a corner building:

https://goo.gl/maps/Em97aocuXWq
https://goo.gl/maps/gSAygRdLyFD2
https://goo.gl/maps/FJ7g4yYbDrP2
https://goo.gl/maps/GgdpNFFDPq82

But sometimes they're a bit more obvious:

https://goo.gl/maps/dH9FdWs9Eys

 

[steveintoronto]

It's not impossible, just really, really expensive.

The long and the short of it is that if you are doing away with all onboard crews, you are now going to force the passengers to rely on themselves to get themselves off of the trains and out of the tunnels safely in the event of an accident. That means better lighting, way more signage (and keeping it cleaner than it is today), more emergency exits, fewer tripping hazards at track level, etc.

All that stuff is easy to build into a line when you're starting from scratch. But if you're retrofitting it, it can get very, very expensive very quickly, especially the emergency exits.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Then how did London's Victoria Line manage it? Line was built in the 60's. Same age as the Bloor and University lines.
I repeat again, I have trepidations on driverless, but the science and record aren't the excuse, just human perception.

Historical projects
Partially automated trains have been in use on the Central line since 1964. The side doors to the driver's cab were sealed, so that access was normally through the passenger saloon. Since the trains were to be operated by one person, the door controls were moved from the rear end of the motor car into the cab. The train control equipment was fitted beneath the centre seats, and consisted of a "black box", which interpreted signals received from the running rails. These were picked up by sensing coils mounted on the leading bogie. One rail supplied safety information, which was received continuously. Any failure to obtain this data resulted in a trip-valve operating, which stopped the train. The second rail supplied signal commands, which included speed signals and instructions to start and stop the train. This information was only provided when it was needed. The driver was renamed a train operator, and was responsible for opening and closing the doors at stations, and initiating a start from the stations, by pressing two buttons simultaneously. All other operation, including stopping at signals and restarting when safe to proceed was automatic. The first automatic train entered service on 5 April 1964. The automatic control equipment was temporarily mounted in the passenger saloon, between the cab and the first set of doors, to enable engineers to monitor and adjust it as experience was gained.[citation needed]

Current status
Partially automated trains are currently used on four lines (Jubilee, Central, Victoria and Northern).[1] These trains still require drivers to open and close doors and in case of emergency. This will be extended to the other lines by 2022 and will also be used on Thameslink and Crossrail.

There are already driverless trains in operation on the Docklands Light Railway (DLR), although this is a relatively newly built line.[2]

Boris Johnson promised in 2012 that there would be driverless Tube trains within 10 years. During his campaign to be re-elected as London Mayor, he said "TfL (Transport for London) will rapidly establish a timetable for introducing the first driverless trains to become operational on the London Underground network within a decade" which was cheered by Brian Paddick (Lib Dems) but Ken Livingstone (Labour) said that this was a 'vanity project' and Jenny Jones (Greens) said that she had concerns over the safety of driverless trains.[3]

Richard Holloway, deputy cabinet member for sports, leisure and customer services at Westminster City Council, launched a petition in August 2015 to demand driverless trains.[4]
[...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automation_of_the_London_Underground