TTC: New Fare Gate Installation

[Leo_Chan]

3. The solution is more fare inspections with mandatory $300 fines for evasion.

fines that go to the TTC rather than the City nor Province.

 

[amnesiajune]

The solution is more fare inspections with mandatory $300 fines for evasion.

The solution is to just accept that a small number of people who wouldn't pay a fare under any circumstances might hop onto streetcars without paying instead of walking. That's the drawback of all-door boarding, and the benefits are absolutely worth it. More fare inspectors will generate an insignificant amount of revenue.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The solution is to just accept that a small number of people who wouldn't pay a fare under any circumstances might hop onto streetcars without paying instead of walking. That's the drawback of all-door boarding, and the benefits are absolutely worth it. More fare inspectors will generate an insignificant amount of revenue.

Fare inspection really isn't about recovery of revenue - it is about creating a credible deterrence against skipping fares in a systematic manner in a trust-based system.

AoD

 

[WillTo]

Fines go to City after province takes a surcharge. Technically does not go to TTC.

I once read a Reddit post about a guy who went to court and the whole bureaucratic procedure. Whatever money is raised is probably lost on administration.

 

[amnesiajune]

Fare inspection really isn't about recovery of revenue - it is about creating a credible deterrence against skipping fares in a systematic manner in a trust-based system.

The TTC already does a good job of this. You don't have to see fare inspectors every single day. Just seeing them once every week or two is enough of a deterrent. Adding more would just be wasting money to make a vocal minority of people feel less indignant.

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

Removal on the automatic turnstiles have started:

 

[Leo_Chan]

Don Mills Station:

 

[MetroMan]

Fines go to City after province takes a surcharge. Technically does not go to TTC.

Wait... so that guy in the beginning of the video says he feels "panic" when he sees a fare inspector? So he's confessing to being a fare evader? Seriously? Why would you admit to that? I see people skip paying all the time. Often, when arriving at Spadina station and there are inspectors awaiting, you'll see who planned on evading their fare by the number of people who stay back and go directly to the ticket machine. It really burns me up inside because I feel: why do I have to pay when so many don't? I'd support having a mix of under cover inspectors and uniformed ones. It'll scare most people into paying because literally any passenger can be an inspector.

 

[amnesiajune]

It really burns me up inside because I feel: why do I have to pay when so many don't?

You don't have to pay. You choose to pay because you don't want to risk the fine. That's how the POP system works - nobody will stop you from getting on the streetcar if you don't pay, but you will be fined if you're caught not paying.

The benefits far outweigh the costs, which is why the TTC has implemented it on the streetcar system and is considering implementing it on some busier bus routes. And (for what seems like the hundredth time saying this) more enforcement would generate a trivial amount of extra revenue when you take away the costs.

 

[WillTo]

Wait... so that guy in the beginning of the video says he feels "panic" when he sees a fare inspector? So he's confessing to being a fare evader? Seriously? Why would you admit to that? I see people skip paying all the time. Often, when arriving at Spadina station and there are inspectors awaiting, you'll see who planned on evading their fare by the number of people who stay back and go directly to the ticket machine. It really burns me up inside because I feel: why do I have to pay when so many don't? I'd support having a mix of under cover inspectors and uniformed ones. It'll scare most people into paying because literally any passenger can be an inspector.

In the past few years I have only been checked on a streetcar once, and once exiting (St. Clair stn) once. All other times have been at Union or Spadina where it is pretty easy to step off, see the inspectors, and hop back on the streetcar again.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

You don't have to pay. You choose to pay because you don't want to risk the fine. That's how the POP system works - nobody will stop you from getting on the streetcar if you don't pay, but you will be fined if you're caught not paying.

The benefits far outweigh the costs, which is why the TTC has implemented it on the streetcar system and is considering implementing it on some busier bus routes. And (for what seems like the hundredth time saying this) more enforcement would generate a trivial amount of extra revenue when you take away the costs.

However, do you have any evidence the current level of enforcement is effective as a deterrent? No system is foolproof, and it's a good idea for streetcars, but ensuring compliance with fares is important - and you don't want to be creating a condition where evading it is a low-risk, viable option.

AoD

 

[DSC]

However, do you have any evidence the current level of enforcement is effective as a deterrent? No system is foolproof, and it's a good idea for streetcars, but ensuring compliance with fares is important - and you don't want to be creating a condition where evading it is a low-risk, viable option.

AoD

Yes, its clearly a balancing act to get enough visible enforcement to make it effective but not so much it costs more than it catches or scares! I think that more visible enforcement officers, even if not if they are not actually checking people might be good as I really see very few.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Yes, its clearly a balancing act to get enough visible enforcement to make it effective but not so much it costs more than it catches or scares! I think that more visible enforcement officers, even if not if they are not actually checking people might be good as I really see very few.

Actually I suspect all the systems will cost more than it catches/scares (nevermind that there is a temporal element to it as well) - but I consider that to be a cost of operating transit - to prevent the rise of a situation whereby the conditions for extensive fare evasions occurs.

AoD

 

[nfitz]

In the past few years I have only been checked on a streetcar once, and once exiting (St. Clair stn) once. All other times have been at Union or Spadina where it is pretty easy to step off, see the inspectors, and hop back on the streetcar again.

Odd. Most of my travel has been on 504 and 506, and I'm inspected regularly enough on those (in addition to also being inspected at Broadview and Main Street stations), and have seen them on 501 as well. I even got hauled off once, when I couldn't find my Metropass (which I assumed my wife must have taken - but then found buried in my wallet, as they were starting to write it up). I reckon they get me at least once in every 30-40 streetcar trips.

Most of the time everyone has paid. Seeing someone removed is unusual (and not necessarily indicative, given I found my pass after I was removed - though they did ticket the woman who they got at the same time as me).

Are you using it every day? Particular time? Particular route?

 

[WillTo]

Odd. Most of my travel has been on 504 and 506, and I'm inspected regularly enough on those (in addition to also being inspected at Broadview and Main Street stations), and have seen them on 501 as well. I even got hauled off once, when I couldn't find my Metropass (which I assumed my wife must have taken - but then found buried in my wallet, as they were starting to write it up). I reckon they get me at least once in every 30-40 streetcar trips.

Most of the time everyone has paid. Seeing someone removed is unusual (and not necessarily indicative, given I found my pass after I was removed - though they did ticket the woman who they got at the same time as me).

Are you using it every day? Particular time? Particular route?

Hmmm... I do typically only use the 510 or 509 for longer trips. Carleton, Dundas, Queen, and King I've used just for short trips. Almost always on weekends or at night.