TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[the lemur]

I'm not sure. But what way would Toronto have had to predict Bombardier's delays nearly a decade ahead of time?

Toronto wouldn't have had to, and neither would the TTC. It was Bombardier's responsibility to make sure it could manufacture components to known specifications, source them effectively and ship them on time, but it's the TTC and Toronto that are enduring the consequences.

 

[the lemur]

How much could Bombardier be losing over this?

I hope it's a lot. It's an unacceptable waste of the TTC's time, and they could use the money.

 

[wopchop]

How much could Bombardier be losing over this?

Good question. I'm not that familiar with LDs for contracts like this. But I've seen LDs on Infrastructure Ontario projects that run anywhere from $35,000 to $60,000 a day.

 

[innsertnamehere]

mind you this is a significantly larger contract than most IO projects..

 

[Duck]

How can Waterloo's LRVs be the first 100% low floor LRVs? Surely there are others. And if not, what about the 3 Flexity LRVs already in use by TTC?

Hmm, the stats that the Region had shared during the open houses was that the most "low floor" that other cities have is around 70%. I'm not aware of any other NA city using 100% LF hardware. In Europe? Sure - it's the standard, now.

You're right that the trains the TTC has taken delivery of are 100% low floor... but the Region is using the fact that in Toronto, they are operating there as a streetcar, not as Light Rail.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Should be remembered that suppliers could supply the very same parts or similar parts to several manufacturers. The same seats for example could be made by one supplier to different light rail, heavy rail, and bus companies. The same types of screws or wiring could be used by different companies.

 

[smallspy]

"Unique streetcar track gauge; on a nine-week strike here last summer; on problems designing a ramp to load disabled passengers; and on managing inventory of parts." None of these issues are the TTC's problem. Where are the streetcars that Bombardier committed to providing, fully knowing that they would be designing a car to fit our unique track gauge, with a ramp, and would have to manage a large inventory of parts due to their "worldwide assembly chain"? They knew all of that going in, before committing to a production/delivery schedule. The strike is an unknowable, but it is hardly the TTC's fault, and likely Bombardier's own fault for letting it happen.

While most of the issues surrounding the delays to the new cars are fairly placed at the feet of Bombardier, the issues with the ramps isn't one of those.

The TTC and ACAT were the ones who requested the change to the design of the ramp and its interface into its particular module, and only after testing it first. It is rightfully considered a "change order/change in scope", and therefore not subject to the same delay penalties. It by no means exonerates Bombardier however, and it wouldn't surprise me if at least some of the penalty costs instead go towards covering that change.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[wopchop]

mind you this is a significantly larger contract than most IO projects..

True, it's a big contract. But some of those IO contracts that I mentioned are in the 500 million - 1 billion dollars range- we are talking big brand-new hospitals builds like North Bay Regional, Bridgepoint Health, Women's College, Humber Regional,etc. I don't know if LDs are comparable though with a contract like this, as it is a procurement for vehicles, as opposed to construction of a building. The principle is the same, though.

While most of the issues surrounding the delays to the new cars are fairly placed at the feet of Bombardier, the issues with the ramps isn't one of those.

The TTC and ACAT were the ones who requested the change to the design of the ramp and its interface into its particular module, and only after testing it first. It is rightfully considered a "change order/change in scope", and therefore not subject to the same delay penalties. It by no means exonerates Bombardier however, and it wouldn't surprise me if at least some of the penalty costs instead go towards covering that change.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

I didn't realize that, but fair enough. Still doesn't seem like enough of a reason to explain the magnitude of this delay.

In general, any change order is accompanied by a schedule adjustment to compensate for the added work, as an open-ended commitment to release more funds for unscheduled work is foolish. So Bombardier would still be obligated to provide x number of streetcar vehicles on a date that is +x days more than the original scheduled contract completion date. Because it is a contract for a product where the change order affects substantial completion, it would make sense to me that they were given a schedule extension to still provide the streetcars, but with the new ramp. This is the same as the process for any building construction project where a change order is given and the work it directs will affect substantial completion / occupancy dates (although obviously this becomes contentious, as no one ever wants to change these dates).

Do we know if the drop-dead date that has been reported in the media is the original date or a revised date? That would be key.

 

[rbt]

True. But how could it get to the point that the Sahagun plant was making substandard components and shipping them here regardless?

That's an excellent question but I'm not sure how tooling another plant would fix it. Moving a few managers/workers from a well-functioning plant to that plant would appear to be a good option.

Is the track gauge really the problem it's being made out to be?

This is just silliness. There are lots of non-standard issues (turn radius, incline, power/traction requirements) that forced a unique design. This is one of the simplest to deal with. Creating jigs which enforce measurements is part of tooling the factory.

And how long before someone says 'Boy, we should have gone with Siemens after all'?

I suppose that depends on what penalties exist and what kind of discount we get on a 60-car extension order.

Given it was the biggest LRT order in history (planet-wide AFAIK), I wouldn't have expected a Siemens order to go perfectly smoothly either.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Good question. I'm not that familiar with LDs for contracts like this. But I've seen LDs on Infrastructure Ontario projects that run anywhere from $35,000 to $60,000 a day.

mind you this is a significantly larger contract than most IO projects..

So assuming $60,000 per day, if Bombarider is one year late, this could end up costing Bombarider $22 Million, enough to purchase 3 additional streetcars.

 

[pstogios]

So assuming $60,000 per day, if Bombarider is one year late, this could end up costing Bombarider $22 Million, enough to purchase 3 additional streetcars.

Which would be delivered when, 2050?

I hope this company never gets any new business from the TTC.

 

[the lemur]

Which would be delivered when, 2050?

I hope this company never gets any new business from the TTC.

Is Bombardier having trouble filling any other orders, anywhere else in the world?

 

[salsa]

So assuming $60,000 per day, if Bombarider is one year late, this could end up costing Bombarider $22 Million, enough to purchase 3 additional streetcars.

Whatever money they lose will probably be recouped by the hefty penalty that the city will pay thanks to the Scarborough subway shenanigans.

 

[smallspy]

Is Bombardier having trouble filling any other orders, anywhere else in the world?

They have had a couple although the order for new Swiss double-deck intercity trains is the only one off of the top of my head that has gone worse than the issues we have had with our streetcars.

Conversely, the dual-mode locos that they designed and built for AMT and NJT were, while slightly delayed for the early deliveries, universally liked by crews and apparently ridiculously reliable.

The vast, vast, vast majority of projects fit into the average - only slightly delayed if at all, and reliable enough to be forgettable.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[georgevicbell]

That there is still not a public schedule or date for even the fourth vehicle is a huge red-flag...(let alone the rest of the order)

If Byford doesn't make a public statement about it before the next TTC Board meeting then he needs to be asked point blank when Bombardier has committed to delivering the next one by the commissioners...he also needs to be asked his confidence level that they will deliver by that date.

If bombardier won't commit or Byford is not confident then the commissioners need to be requesting a contingency plan to extend the life of the current fleet, potentially for a long period if this were to enter the courts, or if the contract falls apart.

The potential is here for a major issue as it's unlikely that a new supplier could be signed on quickly (if ever).