News   Dec 20, 2024
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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

I wonder when the penalties can start to kick in - surely the contract can't be so lenient to have nothing but terms for complete delivery by year x, when the plan was gradual introduction of the new vehicles into the fleet. If it isn't - perhaps legal proceedings should start, just to keep things burning at a nicer pace.

AoD
 
I wonder when the penalties can start to kick in - surely the contract can't be so lenient to have nothing but terms for complete delivery by year x, when the plan was gradual introduction of the new vehicles into the fleet. If it isn't - perhaps legal proceedings should start, just to keep things burning at a nicer pace.
It took them years to sort out the Toronto Rocket Penalties. Deliveries started in 2010, and revenue service started in 2011, however they didn't sort out the penalties until 2014, most of the money going to various upgrades such as the chimes, revised handholds, etc.
 
It took them years to sort out the Toronto Rocket Penalties. Deliveries started in 2010, and revenue service started in 2011, however they didn't sort out the penalties until 2014, most of the money going to various upgrades such as the chimes, revised handholds, etc.
In general penalties in construction are never paid out but are used to buy extras, cover change orders etc. Bombardier definitely owes $$ for late delivery, the TTC definitely owes $$ for change orders and also wants to get more vehicles. It will get worked out by the end of the contract.
 
In major contracts, sorting out the 'claims' tends to happen late in the project, or after commissioning. For a couple of reasons....one being that there are usually change orders as well as contractor omissions, and so pursuing damages may be a two way street. The other being that you want the finished product in hand.... if you penalise the contractor too heavily early on, their incentive to improve quality and recover production goes away.

I suspect the TTC's lawyers have been quite vocal, but it's too soon for litigation.

The problem with Bombardier blaming its global network is - it tends to tarnish their overall reputation rather than just the one contract. Flexity is a global product offering, end assembly would likely shift to whatever country orders the product but the components are likely manufactured in the same place for all customers. So other potential Flexity customers should be watching.
 
Bombardier is also not getting payments if they are not delivering. So that's somewhat of a penalty to them both in terms of cashflow, and inflation. TTC is over $100 million behind in payments of where they expected to be for 2014, and were about $46 million short in 2013.
 
Seattle's First Hill streetcar line has delayed opening by over 1 year due to late delivery of their LRT vehicles. Track and other construction was complete in June 2014. They only bought 6 vehicles (5 for normal operations, 1 spare) from Inekon Trams are are still waiting for them.

http://www.soundtransit.org/Projects-and-Plans/First-Hill-Streetcar


Bombardier better get things figured out before Eglinton is due to open.
 
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If companies are on the ball, cost of change orders are added to the contract when they occur, not down the road. You don't start work without a approved change order, and to do so is putting the company in a bad spot for getting paid. You bill for those change orders as you do the work. I remember doing a job review on a project to see what changes took place and what extra cost was incurred, but not bill. The owner was taken back when I told him that he hadn't bill an extra 25% of the original contract in the first place for these changes.

As for transit systems, its a different process, but they need to be on the ball to make things go smooth.

TTC is ahead in funding at this time since they are only paying for what they received which is next to nothing at this time. At some point, TTC is going to have to back charge Bombardier the cost that will be incurred to maintain the existing fleet because of the delay as well the cost of not fulfilling the contract as awarded. How that is to be done is between both parties, but Bombardier needs to be put on notice of legal action at this time.

The earlies TTC could have cars starting to arrive from another supplier is late 2018 or early 2019. A number of manufactures are licking their chops to get a changes to go after all the orders currently book for Thunder Bay for the LRV's.

The track gauge claim is a shame as 1,000's of LRV's are built around the world on different track gauge using the same body for most of them.

Bombardier is trying to deflect the real problem away from them with these claims. At the end of the day, its their problem, not their suppliers as they are the ones that order the items, award contracts, but most of all doing Q&A on all items. Lack of Q&A with inspection at plants is the real problem.

How are the car bodies allow to be ship out of Mexico that are poorly manufacture in the first place? This goes back as far as the first batch of cars for Minneapolis as well their current fleet from Bombardier.

Based on the length of the strike, there should had been a huge stockpile of parts either in Thunder Bay or in the yard of suppliers waiting for delivery. The question is why isn't there a stockpile of parts at Thunder Bay now??

Bombardier is shooting themselves in the foot these days with poor delivery dates and paying extra cost doing so. Some of those cost are public records while others aren't.

As for the ramp issue, that a TTC issue and a cost they will have to pay depending on what all took place to build the new one as well how much more it cost over the original one. There is an engineering cost that will have to be paid for by TTC for this change. The ramp may delay the delivery some what in the begining, but not this long.

All I can say I told you so, as I saw this problem from day one with TTC putting all their eggs in one basket by going to one supplier. More broken eggs than good ones in that basket these days.

TTC needs to do a full review on how they tender their contracts before buying anymore equipment to the point they need to remove the job protection of Thunder Bay and buy equipment that will meet TTC bottom line, less cost on riders and Toronto taxpayer shoulder while getting the best requirement for the best price regardless who makes it. This applies to the extra 60 cars to be order as well the new 7 car train for the line 1 in mid 2020's.

Free trade rules will apply at that time and the buy 25% Canadian requirement will be dead.

There are persistent rumours that Bombardier want to discontinue the Sky Train (ART) due to lack of sales. Vancouver's Evergreen Line will be the last of the Mark 2's cars and the push to get ART under Broadway before production stops.
 
If companies are on the ball, cost of change orders are added to the contract when they occur, not down the road. You don't start work without a approved change order, and to do so is putting the company in a bad spot for getting paid. You bill for those change orders as you do the work. I remember doing a job review on a project to see what changes took place and what extra cost was incurred, but not bill. The owner was taken back when I told him that he hadn't bill an extra 25% of the original contract in the first place for these changes.

That's right. Change orders are issued as the job goes, and billed as you go. You wouldn't do out-of-scope work before receiving the agreement (which is what a change order is, an agreement) between contractor and owner to alter the scope (and with it, price and/or schedule) of the original contract. Your guarantor/surety also needs to sign off on it, as they provide guaranty for your bond, and it originally only applies to the original contract amount. Otherwise your performance bond won't cover any additions.

Making a change order after the fact is simply stupid. It would mean that owners could hold contractors hostage for money, as the work has already been completed, and no agreement was in place for that work. On most projects these days, I typically see change orders before we even start in the field, and continuing throughout the entire job. When you hear about "cost overruns" in the news, what they are actually talking about are change orders.

Damages are calculated near the end of the job, as you typically don't incur damages until the contract completion date has come and gone and you haven't met substantial completion.

The TTC cannot start legal proceedings against Bombardier until they actually fail to meet some sort of contractual obligation, which they likely haven't done. If the TTC feels that Bombardier's performance is jeopardizing the overall schedule and contract completion, then what they can do is put Bombardier on notice. They would send them a letter, saying that their in-house delays are worrying, and that they delayng TTC's fleet rollout, and that they might be on the hook for overhaul costs to extend the life of the existing fleet due to lack of new fleet delivery. Not doing so typically weakens your case during the claims process, as in cases of obvious performance issues, you should be doing your due diligence and informing your contractor that they aren't working to your expectations. Judging by the comments of Andy Byford in the news, it sounds like this has probably already happened, or is about to happen.
 
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There are persistent rumours that Bombardier want to discontinue the Sky Train (ART) due to lack of sales. Vancouver's Evergreen Line will be the last of the Mark 2's cars and the push to get ART under Broadway before production stops.

Curious. Is it likely that Bombarider well sell this tech to another company? If not, will they permanently stop production of ICTS vehicles? And does this mean that Vancouver will have to convert their ICTS lines to a different technology (most likely heavy or light rail)?

This is one of the reasons why I supported conversation to LRT for Line 3, rather than upgrading Line 3 from Mk 1 to Mk 2 technology. Building muti-billion dollar public infrastructure to be dependant on a single supplier appears incredibly short sighted to me.
 
Curious. Is it likely that Bombarider well sell this tech to another company? If not, will they permanently stop production of ICTS vehicles? And does this mean that Vancouver will have to convert their ICTS lines to a different technology (most likely heavy or light rail)?

This is one of the reasons why I supported conversation to LRT for Line 3, rather than upgrading Line 3 from Mk 1 to Mk 2 technology. Building muti-billion dollar public infrastructure to be dependant on a single supplier appears incredibly short sighted to me.

Very few cities are using Skytrain/ICTS other than Vancouver and Toronto for the SRT. Not a good position to be in.
 
Very few cities are using Skytrain/ICTS other than Vancouver and Toronto for the SRT. Not a good position to be in.

Most implementations of ICTS are for short 'people mover' systems, such as the SRT or airport trains. Vancouver is the only city I know of that has chosen to base their entire rapid transit system on the technology. When the manufacturer inevitably abandons the tech, Vancouver is going to be royally screwed.

I figure to Government of BC will either purchase the tech from Bombardier and develop newer vehicles themselves, or bite the bullet and pay the tens of billions of dollars necessary for conversion of the entire system to LRT.

I'd love to know Vancouver's justification for going with proprietary tech over open standards such as light rail.
 
Most implementations of ICTS are for short 'people mover' systems, such as the SRT or airport trains. Vancouver is the only city I know of that has chosen to base their entire rapid transit system on the technology. When the manufacturer inevitably abandons the tech, Vancouver is going to be royally screwed.

I figure to Government of BC will either purchase the tech from Bombardier and develop newer vehicles themselves, or bite the bullet and pay the tens of billions of dollars necessary for conversion of the entire system to LRT.

I'd love to know Vancouver's justification for going with proprietary tech over open standards such as light rail.

Yup. And to pre-emptively reply: LRT can be elevated & automated just like the Skytrain, except LRT tech is used everywhere.
 
The public will not be happy if our ECLRT is ready to go, but is unusable because of the lack of vehicles. I'm sure the public pressure to hold Bombardier accountable will be huge.

Does the public really draw a line between different kinds of delays or do they just slide into "blame the ttc" mode?
 
Most implementations of ICTS are for short 'people mover' systems, such as the SRT or airport trains. Vancouver is the only city I know of that has chosen to base their entire rapid transit system on the technology. When the manufacturer inevitably abandons the tech, Vancouver is going to be royally screwed.

I figure to Government of BC will either purchase the tech from Bombardier and develop newer vehicles themselves, or bite the bullet and pay the tens of billions of dollars necessary for conversion of the entire system to LRT.

I'd love to know Vancouver's justification for going with proprietary tech over open standards such as light rail.

Most systems have a good deal of proprietary technology anyways, especially with signalling systems which are almost all proprietary. Payment systems, also, tend to be proprietary.

The only somewhat bizarre thing about ICTS are the LIMs. Nobody's ever explained, though, why ICTS lines couldn't just be modified to run normally propelled vehicles. There are, in fact, ICTS systems which don't run on LIMs. Other requirements, like turn radii and length, could presumably be dealt with in future vehicle tenders just like the TTC's streetcars.

Vancouver's also not entirely wedded to ICTS (e.g. the Canada line). The Evergreen Line has to be ICTS since it's an extension of the existing ICTS system.

Lots of cities use systems like ICTS. Kuala Lumpur, Taipei and Yongin all use Bombardier's automated metros. There are at least a half dozen VAL systems in Europe and Asia. AnsaldoBreda's driverless metros are in half a dozen cities. Proprietary technologies are popular with consumers in tons of fields; the inability to swap components hasn't exactly dulled our enthusiasm for iPhones. Proprietary isn't necessarily bad.
 
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