TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[drum118]

4406 has finally started testing today
4600 should be near finishing testing and could enter service on Sunday
505 will resume seeing Flexity in March and most likely will be using pans only.

 

[Fred.S]

Random mostly-insignificant nitpick, but I always wished the TTC started their vehicle numbers with 1, so the first vehicle of the 4400-series of streetcars would be 4401. Seems more logical to me.

I think it's alright to convert the old vehicles to pantograph-use. Sure not the most authentic, but we have the history books to show what the old vehicles looked like, and they're all running with trolley poles up at the Halton Museum anyway. Alternatively, maybe a section of Queen, say Roncy to Neville, and trackage south of that to the waterfront could be kept pole-compatible, and the old vehicles just restricted to that section.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

4600 Queen and University WB currently. 4406 was doing testing at Exhbition Loop midday.

 

[AlbertHWagstaff]

Random mostly-insignificant nitpick, but I always wished the TTC started their vehicle numbers with 1, so the first vehicle of the 4400-series of streetcars would be 4401. Seems more logical to me.

I think it's alright to convert the old vehicles to pantograph-use. Sure not the most authentic, but we have the history books to show what the old vehicles looked like, and they're all running with trolley poles up at the Halton Museum anyway. Alternatively, maybe a section of Queen, say Roncy to Neville, and trackage south of that to the waterfront could be kept pole-compatible, and the old vehicles just restricted to that section.

Excluding the routes running historic cars, San Francisco's routes are all pantograph overhead and pole-equipped vehicles can run on them. The main issue is the lack of overhead frogs, which is overcome by manually moving the pole from one overhead line to the other after the car has turned the corner. Basically other than those sections like St. Clair West Station, pole cars could still use the same overhead, with manual intervention. If the historic cars can be equipped with pantographs, better to do it and avoid the manual workarounds.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Would it be feasible to replace the batteries like those in the new electric busses so the new streetcars wouldn't need overhead wires.

 

[AlbertHWagstaff]

Would it be feasible to replace the batteries like those in the new electric busses so the new streetcars wouldn't need overhead wires.

Is there a battery that can last 18-24 hours in heavy service? Is the technology there yet? It may not be, or may still require recharging during the service day, which would need recharging stations. We already have the overhead infrastructure in place, modification for charging would seem to be a significant cost. Probably more cost effective to use what we have for the forseeable future. I'm assuming battery technology isn't there yet. Does anyone have any insight whether battery technology is advanced enough for all day heavy service?

 

[APTA-2048]

Is there a battery that can last 18-24 hours in heavy service? Is the technology there yet? It may not be, or may still require recharging during the service day, which would need recharging stations. We already have the overhead infrastructure in place, modification for charging would seem to be a significant cost. Probably more cost effective to use what we have for the forseeable future. I'm assuming battery technology isn't there yet. Does anyone have any insight whether battery technology is advanced enough for all day heavy service?

I don’t think there are any 100% battery-electric tram lines in the world right now. Or at least none come to mind. Of note, though, is the Hexi line in Nanjing, China which is 90% catenary-free and uses trams from Bombardier/CRRC. Closer to home, the Q-Line in Detroit operates some sections of its route on battery power.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

4406 is out ''testing'' currently, WB near Queen and Spadina

 

[drum118]

4602 was off loaded today and 4601 will be off loaded on Monday as it sitting in Lambton now.

The other 2 cars are in the service bay.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

4602 was off loaded today and 4601 will be off loaded on Monday as it sitting in Lambton now.

The other 2 cars are in the service bay.

I think 4600 will be in service within the next few days, and 4406 sometime within the next week. As for 4602, earilest it will be is probably the starting of February

 

[drum118]

The only system I know of going 100% battery is Birmingham UK and no idea how they are charging the battery while in service. The only way I can see it being done is having charging stations along the line, as well at the ends. Pans up/down at these stations.

Nice France is 30% off wire while Detroit Q Line and Milwaukee are 60% off wire.

The Q Line suffer from running out of power off line to the point cars have fail as they reach a charging station along the route and have to sit from 5-10 minutes charging before moving on to the next set of stations from my experience riding the system. Cars are charge at each end of the line up to 10 minutes. Milwaukee doesn't have the same issue as Detroit, but are charge at each end. Never time Milwaukee as I didn't have the time to do so.

By the time TTC has to replace the Flexity Fleet, battery will be at a stage where TTC can remove the current overhead for most of the system, especially at intersections assuming the current fleet last 30 plus years.

From my Nice experience, it only take 10 seconds to convert to pan/battery to/from the off wire section. Both Detroit and Milwaukee are about the same time frame as Nice.

Battery at this time can't handle 18-24 hr service and has to be charge in service that is done at the end of the route or replace after X time and mileage.

BYD buses for Indianapolis Red Line BRT need to be charge along the route at BYD cost now as they were running out of power along the route that was only to have chargers at the end for the artic's buses. The line went into service Sept 2019 and issues with the battery with riders on the buses started then compare to 3 weeks of service testing with no riders in Aug that din't have issues. Saw these buses both on the Red line as well on a normal route that service the airport.

 

[drum118]

4600 has enter service on 511 after arriving Jan 07, 2020

Looks like 4406 may reenter service this week after arriving Dec 19, 2019

 

[drum118]

I think 4600 will be in service within the next few days, and 4406 sometime within the next week. As for 4602, earilest it will be is probably the starting of February

I said some time ago that 4600 would be in service this weekend and is now. As for 4406, its a guessing game since it took 45 day to get 4400 back into service and already 32 days for it, but some time this week by the look of it. I expect 4602 to enter service around Jan 30. 4601 should enter service around Feb 2. 4603 should enter service before Feb 14 assuming when it off loaded this week. The final car 4401 is unknown as it still in TB being rebuilt as a production car and it will close the book for all 204 entering service after arrives at Hillcrest. So having all 204 here by Dec 31, 2019 is another miss date and not a few days late as claim.

It looks like it will take 30 plus days for all the cars that have gone to Quebec to have the weld fix once the arrive back to reenter service. The same may happen to 4471 and 4478 once they are repair/rebuilt in TB and no idea how long that will take before they are ship back to TTC.

It maybe 2023-2025 before TTC has a full fleet to use depending on fixing the welds since it taken 6 months plus to do than the plan 19 weeks. This is assuming TTC sends the other cars to have welds fix.

 

[pman]

The only system I know of going 100% battery is Birmingham UK and no idea how they are charging the battery while in service. The only way I can see it being done is having charging stations along the line, as well at the ends. Pans up/down at these stations.

Nice France is 30% off wire while Detroit Q Line and Milwaukee are 60% off wire.

The Q Line suffer from running out of power off line to the point cars have fail as they reach a charging station along the route and have to sit from 5-10 minutes charging before moving on to the next set of stations from my experience riding the system. Cars are charge at each end of the line up to 10 minutes. Milwaukee doesn't have the same issue as Detroit, but are charge at each end. Never time Milwaukee as I didn't have the time to do so.

By the time TTC has to replace the Flexity Fleet, battery will be at a stage where TTC can remove the current overhead for most of the system, especially at intersections assuming the current fleet last 30 plus years.

From my Nice experience, it only take 10 seconds to convert to pan/battery to/from the off wire section. Both Detroit and Milwaukee are about the same time frame as Nice.

Battery at this time can't handle 18-24 hr service and has to be charge in service that is done at the end of the route or replace after X time and mileage.

BYD buses for Indianapolis Red Line BRT need to be charge along the route at BYD cost now as they were running out of power along the route that was only to have chargers at the end for the artic's buses. The line went into service Sept 2019 and issues with the battery with riders on the buses started then compare to 3 weeks of service testing with no riders in Aug that din't have issues. Saw these buses both on the Red line as well on a normal route that service the airport.

The new Sydney CBD and Southeast tram runs without overhead wires along George Street in the core. Though it does have overhead wires outside the CBD. Trams in Sevilla and Bordeaux are wireless, if memory serves me correctly; however, I don’t recall if that’s only in certain sections. On the plus side the TTC has finally managed to figure out the pantograph. So, you know, baby steps.

 

[drum118]

The new Sydney CBD and Southeast tram runs without overhead wires along George Street in the core. Though it does have overhead wires outside the CBD. Trams in Sevilla and Bordeaux are wireless, if memory serves me correctly; however, I don’t recall if that’s only in certain sections. On the plus side the TTC has finally managed to figure out the pantograph. So, you know, baby steps.

There are many systems who have short or x distance without overhead and run on battery for those areas, but not a whole system. Pantograph was new to TTC when the first new CLRV's show up in 1979 and TTC wasn't sure if the current system could handle them then. End the end, TTC went with poles since it was the only thing they knew and not prepare to go to something new. Look at St Clair that was supposed to been built for pan when the whole road was rebuilt for an ROW by the end of 2010 that it was rebuilt again 2 years ago with St Clair West getting a total new system that poles couldn't run on it.

TTC can be very behind the times on things and they need to be forced to make changes to bring them up to world standards. Now we are almost a pan system and will be by late 2021, the next step to use battery for some parts of the system and to become a wireless system about 2035-2040 when the last of the new fleet retires,