TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[Robert James]

I know it’s different, but Boeing can build a 737 in 9 days, and can produce 42 per month. Just thought it was an interesting comparison.

With all due respect, I don't care much for how Boeing manages it's production. They have their foot firmly planted on the scale of competitive aircraft production for the longest time, and are attacking the Canadian aerospace sector in the process by demanding the imposition of tariffs on our aircraft sales, putting Canadian industrial jobs in jeopardy. These economic usurpers have benefited for decades from the largess of American Government subsidies. Bombardier may be a laggard, but it is our laggard, and i will ultimately stand with it against predatory enterprises such as Boeing.The American industrial complex has made a practice of snuffing out our neacent aircraft industries time and again through its ruthless connivance. Have any of you ever heard of the Arrow?

 

[steveintoronto]

Have any of you ever heard of the Arrow?

I know it well, don't go there, the history has been gilded.

The point Alexander makes is productive proficiency. All politics and subsidy economics aside, on an international scale, BBD's productivity isn't good. At all. They've attempted to 'buy it in' as they have with the origins of the Flexity from Europe. European production of Flexities (and the related family) is well established and reputable. The problem comes when German and other competence in Europe doesn't translate to Cdn production. That's due to a number of reasons. I have to state that Alstom have a chance to prove that doesn't have to be the case, albeit Alstom aren't dealing with the TTC and the ridiculous TTC gauge for a start, which alone complicates radius for turns.

BBD's problem is management, not available technology. And unless BBD can turn that around, (and they've failed spectacularly) it's going to be the likes of Airbus to impose production discipline to approach the abilities of Boeing to mass produce.

As to the Flexities...I can't help but wonder if BBD's sell-off of the Transportation Division and the disbursement of the rail operations might just improve things.

At this rate, BBD is going to take a good part of the nation down with it, including subsidies, loans, goodwill and all. I think it's a matter of time, and the sooner the better. Then maybe the streetcars will "run on time".

 

[Robert James]

Again, with all due respect. I got Alexander's point. However, I don't think you can avoid a discussion of politics and subsidies in industrial production in this era of rising nationalism. My point is that Boeing has had decades of government support in developing its administration in the production of aircraft. They have not always been what they are now, but with time and support they have managed to develop proficiency. I don't deny that, but i insist that Bombardier should be given an equal opportunity to mature. I agree that the present management model seems to be an obstacle to progress, and hope that Airbus will bring a salutary benefit to its future development. Bombardier's performance in the delivery of the Flexity has been upsetting, especially given the exemplar achievements of the European arm of the company.. Still, as valid as Alexander's comparison might of have been on a production level, it is contextually an unfair comparison. Bombardier needs to be given the time to get it right. Sometimes, we get so caught up in the minute of an issue, that we forget to think outside the box. Given time and the proper guidance, and a fair competitive landscape, I believe that Bombardier will in time also develop proficiency.

 

[steveintoronto]

Again, with all due respect. I got Alexander's point. However, I don't think you can avoid a discussion of politics and subsidies in industrial production in this era of rising nationalism. My point is that Boeing has had decades of government support in developing its administration in the production of aircraft. They have not always been what they are now, but with time and support they have managed to develop proficiency. I don't deny that, but i insist that Bombardier should be given an equal opportunity to mature. I agree that the present management model seems to be an obstacle to progress, and hope that Airbus will bring a salutary benefit to its future development. Bombardier's performance in the delivery of the Flexity has been upsetting, especially given the exemplar achievements of the European arm of the company.. Still, as valid as Alexander's comparison might of have been on a production level, it is contextually an unfair comparison. Bombardier needs to be given the time to get it right. Sometimes, we get so caught up in the minute of an issue, that we forget to think outside the box. Given time and the proper guidance, and a fair competitive landscape, I believe that Bombardier will in time also develop proficiency.

Robert: A quality answer, but I'm going to have to be brutal, as BBD's wing lift is the product of successive bail-outs (and I know, they all do it)

Bombardier needs to be given the time to get it right.

How much indication is necessary that the time has already run out?

Btw: I have to divulge full disclosure: I have a brother who works for Airbus doing the math for the wing roots on the A380. Is he now out of a job? (A380 is doomed) If so, he's certainly very talented and will find employment elsewhere, probably within the company. If the BBD Clan are out of a job...well..they can always go back to building Ski-Doos. Too late...

How BRP caught a big wave, while Bombardier was left treading water
BRP's stock is at all-time highs, it has a new dividend and an ambitious growth plan, meanwhile the former parent limps along

On April 3, 2003, José Boisjoli gathered the 2,000 employees at Bombardier Inc.’s historic recreational product division in Valcourt, Que. to break some big news: The core unit upon which the aerospace and transportation giant had been built was being sold.

With questions swirling about the division’s future — Who would buy it? Would the Bombardier-Beaudoin family still be involved? Would it remain in Valcourt? — Boisjoli, then its president, chose to look at the sell-off as an opportunity.

“Think of it as if we’re a teenager,” he recalled telling the crowd assembled on the plant floor. “We are out of the house and now we need to prove that we can live by ourselves.”

Fourteen years later, that teenager is thriving. While its former parent has struggled with missed delivery deadlines, government loans and compensation controversies, Bombardier Recreational Products Inc. — now branded simply as BRP — has established itself as a global leader in the competitive recreational product market. [...]

http://business.financialpost.com/transportation/tktk

 

[Richard White]

The problem with Bombardier is that they are thinking small, niche markets. All their streetcars, trains etc are niches and that will be their downfall.

If Bombardier put out products other than business jets, small scale streetcar contracts and tri-level trains they may actually stand a chance. There is a larger market for the sorts of planes Airbus and Boeing make compared to the planes that Bombardier puts out.

As for streetcars in Europe honestly Alstom, Skoda and Siemens put out better products.

I give Bombardier a year at best before they go tits up.

 

[bbdfollower]

The problem with Bombardier is that they are thinking small, niche markets. All their streetcars, trains etc are niches and that will be their downfall.

If Bombardier put out products other than business jets, small scale streetcar contracts and tri-level trains they may actually stand a chance. There is a larger market for the sorts of planes Airbus and Boeing make compared to the planes that Bombardier puts out.

Just reading through the December 2017 it looks like BBD has won several billion dollars worth of orders. Their order backlog in transportation is something like 30+B. Having 30B of orders on the books doesn't sound like a 'downfall', does it?

Here are their press releases:
http://www.bombardier.com/en/media/...pe=all&show-by-page=50&page=1&f-min-year=2002

I give Bombardier a year at best before they go tits up.

It looks like the financial markets have priced almost 0% chance of that happening. Let's see where they are at Jan 2019

 

[Richard White]

Just reading through the December 2017 it looks like BBD has won several billion dollars worth of orders. Their order backlog in transportation is something like 30+B. Having 30B of orders on the books doesn't sound like a 'downfall', does it?

Here are their press releases:
http://www.bombardier.com/en/media/...pe=all&show-by-page=50&page=1&f-min-year=2002



It looks like the financial markets have priced almost 0% chance of that happening. Let's see where they are at Jan 2019

Anyone can say they have an insane amount of orders, actually following through is what makes the difference. Companies can sign up billions of dollars worth of orders without even having the ability to produce, they just have to make people think they can.

Sign up multi-billion dollar contracts and stretch them out. The numbers look good on paper right now but it will be awhile before they get their money and the product is delivered. It is a legal way to cook the books to make them look good.

The problem with Bombardier is that they signed all these orders in Canada and now they cannot deliver as promised. But.. But.... they have all these contracts.. how can they not be making money?

 

[bbdfollower]

Anyone can say they have an insane amount of orders, actually following through is what makes the difference. Companies can sign up billions of dollars worth of orders without even having the ability to produce, they just have to make people think they can. It is essentially cooking the books to make them look good.

Sign up multi-billion dollar contracts and stretch them out. The numbers look good on paper but it will be awhile before they get their money and the product is delivered.

The problem with Bombardier is that they signed all these orders in Canada and now they cannot deliver as promised. But.. But.... they have all these contracts.. how can they not be making money?

In the quarter ending Sept 30th, they reported >2B in revenues with FY guidance ~8.5B. The total order backlog was 33B with positive book-to-bill.

BBD Transport does make money. I know we GTA'ers like to think we're the center of the universe, but just including BBD's performance against the TTC contract doesn't do justice to what the company is achieving across the globe on the sum of their business.

 

[Richard White]

In the quarter ending Sept 30th, they reported >2B in revenues with FY guidance ~8.5B. The total order backlog was 33B with positive book-to-bill.

BBD Transport does make money. I know we GTA'ers like to think we're the center of the universe, but just including BBD's performance against the TTC contract doesn't do justice to what the company is achieving across the globe on the sum of their business.

Considering Metrolinx bailed on them, ION is behind schedule and they got bailed out to the tune of 1 Billion Dollars while having to sell plants to cut costs I highly doubt they are in such good shape. Their airplanes have a 300% duty imposed on them by the US which makes their aircraft less than profitable.

Guessing by your username and lack of posts anything I say will not send you running from the Bombardier Fan Club

 

[Maltesefalcon]

Can anyone give an update on cars? Is #62 here and in testing? Are any more in transit ex Thunder Bay at present?

 

[bbdfollower]

In the quarter ending Sept 30th, they reported >2B in revenues with FY guidance ~8.5B. The total order backlog was 33B with positive book-to-bill.

BBD Transport does make money. I know we GTA'ers like to think we're the center of the universe, but just including BBD's performance against the TTC contract doesn't do justice to what the company is achieving across the globe on the sum of their business.

Yes, I'm a bbd follower who joined specifically to follow the Flexity delivery news. Haven't spent a lot of time following this tread, and BBD transports progress, I just find there is a huge disconnect between how we feel about the company that has constantly over promised and under delivered and how the BBD Transpo unit performs holistically.

That being said, I just want to see more flexies on the road

 

[bbdfollower]

Can anyone give an update on cars? Is #62 here and in testing? Are any more in transit ex Thunder Bay at present?

Yes, please ! I'm dying for some more car updates !

 

[drum118]

4462 is tracking.

4461 up at Hillcrest doing a break for test on 512

4460 is in the yard and looks like it will go into service tomorrow, but we will see.

 

[Maltesefalcon]

4462 is tracking.

4461 up at Hillcrest doing a break for test on 512

4460 is in the yard and looks like it will go into service tomorrow, but we will see.

Thanks for the heads up. Was hoping to see news of #63-65 by now. Wondering if BBD will ship any more in January to try to catch up. Or perhaps they will think their commitment of three is sufficient and will now start stockpiling for Feb.

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

The problem with Bombardier is that they are thinking small, niche markets. All their streetcars, trains etc are niches and that will be their downfall.

If Bombardier put out products other than business jets, small scale streetcar contracts and tri-level trains they may actually stand a chance. There is a larger market for the sorts of planes Airbus and Boeing make compared to the planes that Bombardier puts out.

As for streetcars in Europe honestly Alstom, Skoda and Siemens put out better products.

I give Bombardier a year at best before they go tits up.

If any part of Bombardier is going to go tits up its Aerospace. Bombardier Transportation is doing just fine.

Considering Metrolinx bailed on them

Metrolinx didn't bail on them. Metrolinx got caught trying to unlawfully break from a contract because they ordered more vehicles than they needed from Bombardier and just wanted a quick and easy way out.

ION is behind schedule

Most of these delays can be attributed to Metrolinx and the City of Toronto. (Metrolinx because they refused to do anything with their pilots until they were told by the judge that they couldn't get out of the contract that easily).

ION was never supposed to be the launch customer, nor was it supposed to be the system to test the prototypes with. At this point the only reason more aren't being delivered is because the Region of Waterloo has told Bombardier to hold delivery until Keolis is ready for them.

and they got bailed out to the tune of 1 Billion Dollars while having to sell plants to cut costs I highly doubt they are in such good shape.

Bombardier Aerospace got the bailout NOT Bombardier Transportation. They may be part of the same company but legally and financially the distinction is quite important.

Their airplanes have a 300% duty imposed on them by the US which makes their aircraft less than profitable.

A duty that at the end of the day will not be enforceable due to the Airbus deal.

Guessing by your username and lack of posts anything I say will not send you running from the Bombardier Fan Club

Just because you have a personal vendetta against the company doesn't mean you need to be so damn rude.