TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[Richard White]

Just because you have a personal vendetta against the company doesn't mean you need to be so damn rude.

Apologies but if someone comes onto a forum appearing to be biased (in this case being in the Bombardier fan club) I won't coddle people and drink the kool-aid. I will be upfront and honest.

To that end, apologies to BBDfollower

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

TTC and the ridiculous TTC gauge for a start, which alone complicates radius for turns.

Track Gauge is not as much an issue that people want to make it out to be even with standard gauge tuning radius would still be tight.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Considering Metrolinx bailed on them, ION is behind schedule and they got bailed out to the tune of 1 Billion Dollars while having to sell plants to cut costs I highly doubt they are in such good shape.

Metrolinx bailed because they didn't want to admit that they had too many vehicles that they didn't need on Order. Ion is behind because initially, it's vehicles were tied to the Metrolinx order. From waht I undestand from reading through on the Ion thread and from bombardier rails twitter they made a deal with each other separate from Metrolinx to provide the trains ahead of the ones for crosstown.

 

[Richard White]

Not a flexity but a distraction. When I perusing Youtube just now I came across this video of the Number 2 tram in Budapest. National Geographic ranked it alongside the 501 Queen in 2010. Enjoy.

Forward to 8:41 to skip the nonsense.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I... the ridiculous TTC gauge for a start, which alone complicates radius for turns....

According to this link, there are several width of track gauges around the world. Including the States and in Europe.

The TTC track gauge (1,495 mm) is considered "broad". However, there are even "broader" track gauges. The Pennsylvania track gauge (1,588 mm) is used by Pittsburgh and New Orleans. 1,581 mm is used on SEPTA in Philadelphia.

 

[steveintoronto]

Track Gauge is not as much an issue that people want to make it out to be even with standard gauge tuning radius would still be tight.

You're right, but the complications of increased track radius add geometrically, not arithmetically.

 

[dowlingm]

4460 in service on 510 (h/t FlexityTracker)

 

[DSC]

The problem with Bombardier is that they signed all these orders in Canada and now they cannot deliver as promised. But.. But.... they have all these contracts.. how can they not be making money?

Just because one has 'lots of contracts' is no guarantee you will make money. You could have bid too low so each 'widget' you produce actually COSTS you money or you could be incompetent and not manage your supply chain or work-force or management properly. I think BBD is certainly proven to be in the latter category and may also be in the first.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Just because one has 'lots of contracts' is no guarantee you will make money. You could have bid too low so each 'widget' you produce actually COSTS you money or you could be incompetent and not manage your supply chain or work-force or management properly. I think BBD is certainly proven to be in the latter category and may also be in the first.

Case in point - Carillion. Overreach and over-expansion is not exactly an uncommon way for business to run themselves under.

AoD

 

[crs1026]

Thanks for the heads up. Was hoping to see news of #63-65 by now. Wondering if BBD will ship any more in January to try to catch up. Or perhaps they will think their commitment of three is sufficient and will now start stockpiling for Feb.

Of the four transporter cars in the Thunder Bay-TTC service, three are presently sitting empty in Thunder Bay. Don't know where the fourth is. So no flood of deliveries imminent for a few days anyways.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

Case in point - Carillion. Overreach and over-expansion is not exactly an uncommon way for business to run themselves under.

AoD

I see TorStar and the Globe both are realizing the lessons to be learned from Carillion. It remains to be seen whether the Brits will hold an inquest, and even if they do, whether it will be kicking the lessons down the road, as it has very politically polarizing implications.

A wise observer would point to how the lessons of Crossrail, a massive success, can buffer the dangers of the models Carillion has been party to. But getting back to BBD, there are very strong parallels, not the dangers of risk-taking, that will always be the case in private endeavour, but how they're managed, and how in the case of Carillion, (and by deduction, BBD) government has actually exacerbated that risk...not for the company so much in giving them money to squander, but for the public's best interests with the otucome.

In the case of BBD, agencies of the various governments might already be working behind the scenes to mitigate the damage this might cause. One can only hope. I can't see BBD surviving on the present course. Nor should they...

Quick check shows this just up at the UK Guardian:

[...]
Key points
The collapse of Carillion, the construction company which was one of the biggest contractors to the British government, provided Jeremy Corbyn with an open goal at this week’s prime minister’s questions. The Labour leader began by asking why the government had awarded more than £2bn of contracts to Carillion, even after the company had issued three profit warnings and its share price was in freefall.

May replied that if the government pulled out of contracts whenever a profit warning was issued, it would lead to companies failing and jobs being lost. Corbyn retorted that the government had continued to hand the company public contracts, either to keep it afloat or because they were “deeply negligent of the crisis coming down the line”.

PMQs: Corbyn tells May to end 'costly racket' of private firms running public services - Politics live
Read more

To roars from Conservative MPs, May said Corbyn had not asked her a question. He replied that he had asked whether the government had been negligent or not “and they clearly have been”. He added: “Tory MPs might shout but the reality is over 20,000 Carillion workers are very worried about their future.” The government was supposed to protect public money through crown representatives, he said, “so why did the position of crown representative to Carillion remain vacant during the crucial period of August to November when the share price was in freefall and many people were very worried?”

May responded to a heckle from Emily Thornberry by saying that the shadow foreign secretary had praised Carillion in the past. She said the chief commercial officer took over the crown representative’s responsibilities so it was not the case that no one was looking. “Well they clearly weren’t looking very well,” Corbyn replied.

While Carillion went into liquidation with debts of £1.29bn, he said, they were paying extravagant share dividends and bonuses, and the chief executive will be renumerated for another 10 months. “One rule for the super-rich, another for everybody else.” Can May assure the House that no more money will go to directors, or on bonuses?

May said workers would continue to be paid and that the official receiver was doing his job; where bonus payments were unlawful, they could be recovered. “We were a customer of Carillion, not the manager and that’s a very important difference.” [...]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/17/pmqs-verdict-corbyn-crushes-may-over-carillion

Will BBD become as explosive here? Quite possibly, all the fuel is there for the same combustion.

TorStar yesterday:
Carillion’s collapse
shows limits of our
drive to outsource

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

In the case of BBD, agencies of the various governments might already be working behind the scenes to mitigate the damage this might cause. One can only hope. I can't see BBD surviving on the present course. Nor should they...

Heck, it is even worse in the case of BBD - with the state basically underwriting risk-taking on behalf of a privately owned company with an abnormal ownership structure - and mix in it the not so minor issue of the company being Quebec's poster child.

AoD

 

[steveintoronto]

Heck, it is even worse in the case of BBD - with the state basically underwriting risk-taking on behalf of a privately owned company with an abnormal ownership structure - and mix in it the not so minor issue of the company being Quebec's poster child.

AoD

In deference to the posters practising 'train spotting' this is worthy of a forum of its own. I agree with you completely, although I'm wary of claiming which is worse. I do have to repeat though that those Flexities might arrive sooner if BBD falls now.
To the poster claiming (gist) "The Transportation Division is healthy and profitable" you completely miss the point. They're a commodity to be sold by BBD to desperately keep the mother ship from crashing.

Caisse CEO says Bombardier should consider rail deal with China’s CRRC

Matt Scuffham
TORONTO
Reuters
Published November 1, 2017 Updated November 1, 2017
Bombardier Inc should look at all options for its transportation business including partnering with China's state-owned CRRC, one of Bombardier's biggest shareholders said on Wednesday.

"I think we have to look at everything. Every opportunity that comes up ought to be looked at," Caisse de depot et Placement du Quebec Chief Executive Officer Michael Sabia told reporters when asked about a deal with CRRC.

Germany's Siemens and France's Alstom said they are merging their train manufacturing operations in September. The move will leave Bombardier competing in a market dominated by CRRC, the world's largest train maker, and a combined Siemens and Alstom group as the second biggest.


Sabia said Bombardier should consider a partnership with CRRC rather than selling the business to the Chinese.

"I think the transportation business is a long-run asset of Bombardier. I don't see an opportunity or reason to go down the sale path," he said. [...]

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/rep...r-rail-deal-with-chinas-crrc/article36799318/

Ultimately the Flexities would arrive sooner if the Transport Division is spun off further (it has already to 30%) and various segments sold off to concerns who know how to better manage them.

 

[nfitz]

Quick check shows this just up at the UK Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/17/pmqs-verdict-corbyn-crushes-may-over-carillion

Will BBD become as explosive here? Quite possibly, all the fuel is there for the same combustion.

Never. Not as integral (I'd have thought Carillion would be a bigger issue here than BBD, with 80% of the Ministry of Transport snow clearing work, among other stuff).

And in England, a bad weather storm might bring down the very flimsy May government. Even BBD itself is threatening it, as BBD are the largest private employer in Northern Ireland (which in itself is in huge crisis with no government now for over a year, and Ireland and the UK starting to bicker over who get's to take over. Let alone the UK government's stability, in a very weak minority government, being propped up by a bunch of anti-Catholic creationists, with little concern for anything else except Ulster). If May topples over Carillion, it could change the entire future of the British Isles - with the UK itself at a huge potential turning point, with the United Kingdom's existence under threat - let alone Northern Ireland.

So no - not as integral to Canada.

 

[lenaitch]

Never. Not as integral (I'd have thought Carillion would be a bigger issue here than BBD, with 80% of the Ministry of Transport snow clearing work, among other stuff).

And in England, a bad weather storm might bring down the very flimsy May government. Even BBD itself is threatening it, as BBD are the largest private employer in Northern Ireland (which in itself is in huge crisis with no government now for over a year, and Ireland and the UK starting to bicker over who get's to take over. Let alone the UK government's stability, in a very weak minority government, being propped up by a bunch of anti-Catholic creationists, with little concern for anything else except Ulster). If May topples over Carillion, it could change the entire future of the British Isles - with the UK itself at a huge potential turning point, with the United Kingdom's existence under threat - let alone Northern Ireland.

So no - not as integral to Canada.

A tad overstated but I take your point. The MTO website shows Carillion with 8 out of 20 maintenance contracts, which is effectively outdated since they had already 'agreed' to terminate their Muskoka contract (not a moment too soon IMO). Interestingly, only one contract in the GTA, so will anyone really care? So long as there is access to the equipment, I would think another contractor could take up the crews fairly quickly. Certainly, much less complicated that someone trying to jump into any void created by a similar de-construction of Bombardier.

I have to wonder about these all-singing-all-dancing worldwide companies. Serco is another. These are not just investment holdings - these are operating companies. Jeez, find a business you are good at it and try to dominate that market, not everything. Many large and so-called diversified companies of decades past saw that wisdom and learned to focus back on their core.