TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[nfitz]

I suspect maintenance says they're effectively dead now (which they are on many days) and service planning says they'll be around longer as they don't have much else to work with.

Perhaps ... though the 2019 means all retired by end of 2019, and 2021 means none at the beginning of 2021 ... so there's not that much between the two.

The difference could simply be the low and high projections of when Bombardier will deliver all 204 cars.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Looks like we will have a shortage of CLRVs/ALRVs for the next few nights.

From link.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

Perhaps ... though the 2019 means all retired by end of 2019, and 2021 means none at the beginning of 2021 ... so there's not that much between the two.

The difference could simply be the low and high projections of when Bombardier will deliver all 204 cars.

The ALRVs, as @rbt said, are basically dead in the wind. They'll be gone by the end this year for sure. The CLRVs, have to stay till 2021 until all routes are converted to Flexities,

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

Currently, there are no CLRVs on 501, just Flexities and buses, however the CLRVs are on 506.

 

[crs1026]

4525 is finally ready to ship. 4478 is still sitting in Lambton Yard.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

The CLRVs, have to stay till 2021 until all routes are converted to Flexities,

That was the plan, as in the 2018 budget, there was unfunded money in 2019 through 2021 for the 60 additional cars, with delivery in 2020 and 2021.

Now that the new budget deliveries pushes off the spending to outside the 5-year budget, starting in 2024, deliveries have been pushed off to 2025, there isn't enough Flexities to convert all the streetcar routes, and they'll be using buses.

Though that time frame seems highly optimistic to me, if it's a new tender.

 

[max]

With only 4572 and 4578 having appeared from Kingston, and the plan for them to provide 32 more cars in the next 11 months, I'm quite concerned that this is going to end badly.

What does it say about the status of 4570, 4571, and 4573 to 4577. That's 7 cars that must be lying around in Kingston for one reason or another!

I could be wrong, but I don't believe 4578 has appeared yet. The comment from Paul refers to 4478 at Lambton Yard. That unit is being shipped to New York to be stripped down and repaired due to severe water damage.

 

[nfitz]

I could be wrong, but I don't believe 4578 has appeared yet. The comment from Paul refers to 4478 at Lambton Yard. That unit is being shipped to New York to be stripped down and repaired due to severe water damage.

Ah! That makes more sense - I need better glasses! I'll delete my wrong-headed comment!

On the other hand, 4578 being around at least gave me hope that 7 more cars would arrive from Kingston soon. But really ... it's almost February and Bombardier has only shipped a single car from Kingston ever?

 

[drum118]

Ah! That makes more sense - I need better glasses! I'll delete my wrong-headed comment!

On the other hand, 4578 being around at least gave me hope that 7 more cars would arrive from Kingston soon. But really ... it's almost February and Bombardier has only shipped a single car from Kingston ever?

How can 4578 give you hope when 4570 & 4571 have yet to be ship as well the cars after 4572 to 4678??? I already said we will not see another TTC car from Kingston due to the fact that Metrolinx needs 6 cars by Feb 1 with high penalty cost than TTC used up weak one.

If Metrolinx gets their 3rd one today and only one truck being used to ship cars, Kingston will be short 3 cars come Feb 1. To get those 3 cars to Metrolinx ASP, mid Feb for the next car for TTC, if then.

 

[drum118]

Since the server not working for editing, try this.

I said in the past TTC will not see another car until, mid Feb if then due to Metrolinx order and hope I am wrong for your hopes. No idea where Edmonton order stands and how it will effect TTC order, other than they are due this year as well.

 

[nfitz]

How can 4578 give you hope when 4570 & 4571 have yet to be ship as well the cars after 4572 to 4678???

Because it would mean that the other 7 cars were fundamentally complete, and perhaps just sitting waiting for some specialized part or modification, and not the primary focus on the production line.

I already said we will not see another TTC car from Kingston due to the fact that Metrolinx needs 6 cars by Feb 1 with high penalty cost than TTC used up weak one.

While you've said that, I haven't seen any other source for that, so I didn't believe it, as there are two production lines at Kingston, and if the plant was operating properly, the one line would the Flexity Freedom vehicles, and the other would be the Flexity Outlook vehicles.

Clearly though, you were correct. And it's becoming increasingly clear that the plant is not operating properly.

If Metrolinx gets their 3rd one today and only one truck being used to ship cars, Kingston will be short 3 cars come Feb 1. To get those 3 cars to Metrolinx ASP, mid Feb for the next car for TTC, if then.

If the cars are sitting in Kingston, constrained only by shipping, they aren't blocking the production line.

I doubt any judge in a common law legal system is going to enforce penalties, if the cars are sitting in Kingston with Metrolinx approval for shipping on February 1, given the lack of any financial damages that it would create.

On another note - it does seem odd that Metrolinx is getting 6 prototypes for a much smaller order than TTC got 3 prototypes for. Particularly when they have so little track in Toronto to run them on.

I assume there's some pause after the first 6 cars, and that Bombardier can't start substantial work on the 7th car, until some kind of approval is given my Metrolinx? Do you know how much time was scheduled for that approval after February 1?

 

[drum118]

Because it would mean that the other 7 cars were fundamentally complete, and perhaps just sitting waiting for some specialized part or modification, and not the primary focus on the production line.

While you've said that, I haven't seen any other source for that, so I didn't believe it, as there are two production lines at Kingston, and if the plant was operating properly, the one line would the Flexity Freedom vehicles, and the other would be the Flexity Outlook vehicles.

Clearly though, you were correct. And it's becoming increasingly clear that the plant is not operating properly.

If the cars are sitting in Kingston, constrained only by shipping, they aren't blocking the production line.

I doubt any judge in a common law legal system is going to enforce penalties, if the cars are sitting in Kingston with Metrolinx approval for shipping on February 1, given the lack of any financial damages that it would create.

On another note - it does seem odd that Metrolinx is getting 6 prototypes for a much smaller order than TTC got 3 prototypes for. Particularly when they have so little track in Toronto to run them on.

I assume there's some pause after the first 6 cars, and that Bombardier can't start substantial work on the 7th car, until some kind of approval is given my Metrolinx? Do you know how much time was scheduled for that approval after February 1?

Been there and done it both ways. Unless things are on site as per contract, regardless they maybe ready in a shop, damages will be awarded for failure to comply with contract. It can be the full cost or part of the cost.

Even though there are supposed to be 2 production lines in Kingston, not working as plan based on track record so far and far from what BBD said was going to happen.

There are 3 orders on hand, with 2 due to be completed this year and one early 2020. Math will say when the last car will be ship if current deliveries rate remain the same as it is today. 5 cars ship since Sept. TTC 44 cars, Metrolinx 76 cars, Edmonton 34? cars for a total 174.

 

[nfitz]

Been there and done it both ways. Unless things are on site as per contract, regardless they maybe ready in a shop, damages will be awarded for failure to comply with contract. It can be the full cost or part of the cost.

If there are actual $ damages that can be documented. TTC's damages relate to the cost for providing replacement buses, and extending the life of streetcars.

What is the financial basis for Metrolinx damages?

There are 3 orders on hand, with 2 due to be completed this year and one early 2020. Math will say when the last car will be ship if current deliveries rate remain the same as it is today. 5 cars ship since Sept. TTC 44 cars, Metrolinx 76 cars, Edmonton 34? cars for a total 174.

Okay ... but drill down a bit.

Surely after the first 6 prototype cars for Metrolinx, there'd be months before any more deliveries are expected. They surely can't even get too far on construction until Metrolinx signs off on the prototypes.

If things were going well, the one line would be pushing the 6 Metrolinx prototypes out the door, and then working through the remaining Edmonton cars (have they accepted their prototype yet?). The iEdmonton order is only 26 cars total. While the second production line would be doing all TTC.

Obviously though, things aren't going well.

What's the timeframe for Metrolinx to approve the prototypes and trigger production to begin on the remaining cars. I have little confidence that Metrolinx will hit that point quickly, with so little track. I'm surprised they aren't doing this entirely in Kingston on the test track for now ...

(44 cars for TTC? 4570 to 4603 is 34 cars ... and I wouldn't be surprised if there's some movement of a few back to Thunder Bay, given they produced 60 last year, and only need to deliver 45 more in the next 11 months!)

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

How can 4578 give you hope when 4570 & 4571 have yet to be ship as well the cars after 4572 to 4678??? I already said we will not see another TTC car from Kingston due to the fact that Metrolinx needs 6 cars by Feb 1 with high penalty cost than TTC used up weak one.

If Metrolinx gets their 3rd one today and only one truck being used to ship cars, Kingston will be short 3 cars come Feb 1. To get those 3 cars to Metrolinx ASP, mid Feb for the next car for TTC, if then.

I agree. There is no need for optimism for 4578 when the other Kingston Flexities have yet to Delivered.

 

[nfitz]

I agree. There is no need for optimism for 4578 when the other Kingston Flexities have yet to Delivered.

Especially when I misread the post, and it was 4478 that was sighted not 4578! No one has ever seen 4578 as far as I know.