TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[crs1026]

Saw fare inspectors at Dundas West Station for 505 replacement buses on Saturday. At the same time, there were none for 504A. But, before that, I had only seen them doing 504A, and that's the few times I take trips during rush hour.

The TTC mostly uses fare inspectors as human tap-off card readers for connecting routes at subway stations. Heaven forbid they actually filter out around the system.
I don't know whether this is laziness or ineptitude or bad supervision, but it's a very poor deployment of resources.

- Paul

 

[Andy T]

The TTC mostly uses fare inspectors as human tap-off card readers for connecting routes at subway stations. Heaven forbid they actually filter out around the system.
I don't know whether this is laziness or ineptitude or bad supervision, but it's a very poor deployment of resources.

- Paul

Last time I actually saw one was 3 weeks ago and they were being followed by 2 students for what looks to be an assignment.

 

[Maltesefalcon]

With TTC's announcement that they are only expecting 2 Kingston cars this year, it's clear that Kingston hasn't ramped up quite as fast as it should. So unlikely they'll make their Q4 target. I think that's the first quarter in 5 that they've missed significantly (they were 1-2 short in Q1 and Q2, but 3 over in Q3 - hard to quibble over a couple of days).

I'm not sure why you are repeating ancient history here. Yes, the 2015 to 2017 schedules were completely missed. Thunder Bay production speed has been excellent for over a year now, meeting the published schedules, or within a few days, and then catching up.

Not sure how you are calculating quarterly performance but I'm assuming you mean from Q4 2017 to Q4 2018? Well they certainly did not meet their target in the last quarter of 2017. And if they load 1/3 of this year's quota in one quarter, it makes it easier to hit the numbers for the other three. We should also take into account that this year's target was already downsized from the original figure of 76 if memory serves.

 

[bbdfollower]

Not sure how you are calculating quarterly performance but I'm assuming you mean from Q4 2017 to Q4 2018? Well they certainly did not meet their target in the last quarter of 2017. And if they load 1/3 of this year's quota in one quarter, it makes it easier to hit the numbers for the other three. We should also take into account that this year's target was already downsized from the original figure of 76 if memory serves.

Again, still curious to see what kinds of penalties TTC/BBD have in the contract related to the interim delivery 'targets'. I would assume they would have had several hard checkpoints that had penalties: prototype car on site by xxx, prototype meets requirements xx by xxx, first prod car on site by x. Then potentially some interim delivery targets by year, quarter? They've got performance metrics that presumably BBD is expected to meet by a certain period of time in service, too, and finally the final delivery date.

In my experience in commercial contracts in a totally different industry, the penalties for each of these items in the contract would be different, and tend to weigh more heavily to the final production product being delivered by the delivery date. The clients usually work with the vendor during the delivery phase to get to that end goal, so penalties are much lower for missing those early/mid cycle dates. I would imagine that the TTC contract has at least somewhat similar provisions - and I haven't heard or seen anything concrete as to the penalties that TTC is able to levy (within the contract's terms) against BBD based on their performance so far. Would love a chance to get the contract + all amendments to we can move past all the conjecture here.

 

[steveintoronto]

The TTC mostly uses fare inspectors as human tap-off card readers for connecting routes at subway stations. Heaven forbid they actually filter out around the system.
I don't know whether this is laziness or ineptitude or bad supervision, but it's a very poor deployment of resources.

- Paul

Two near constant locales I'm aware of are both ends of the Spadina streetcar line, and Bathurst subway upstairs coming off the Bathurst car.

 

[crs1026]

In my experience in commercial contracts in a totally different industry, the penalties for each of these items in the contract would be different, and tend to weigh more heavily to the final production product being delivered by the delivery date. The clients usually work with the vendor during the delivery phase to get to that end goal, so penalties are much lower for missing those early/mid cycle dates. I would imagine that the TTC contract has at least somewhat similar provisions - and I haven't heard or seen anything concrete as to the penalties that TTC is able to levy (within the contract's terms) against BBD based on their performance so far. Would love a chance to get the contract + all amendments to we can move past all the conjecture here.

Suggest you scroll back much earlier in this thread, you will see mention of the limits to liquidated damages. In this contract, the practical significance of non-performance is that the TTC continues to run the older CLRV/ALRV fleet, which represents a huge maintenance cost given that those old cars should have been retired by now and are clapped out. TTC has divulged that there is some limit to the amount they can seek as damages from Bombardier for this. I forget the amount, it's somewhere back there. The source for this admission has been a) comments by TTC to the media and at City Council and b) memos to their Board that can be found in the minutes of old TTC board meetings, and perhaps city council meetings. I'll leave it to you to go looking for this info.
The comment has been made enough times that it's likely not just speculation - TTC and Bombardier have discussed the whole penalty situation. So the original contract terms may have been superseded by discussions and/or commitments. Clearly the impact on Bombardier is not just a financial penalty, and the potential of TTC litigating for damages, but impact on its credibility in the marketplace, and impact on TTC's interest in a followup order. TTC is choosing its words very carefully at the moment - this can be read more than one way. But any way you read it, the penalties or consequences following from the current delivery schedule are more likely being negotiated rather than applying those original terms.

- Paul

 

[drum118]

Two near constant locales I'm aware of are both ends of the Spadina streetcar line, and Bathurst subway upstairs coming off the Bathurst car.

I think you mean Spadina Station and Union station, since 510 ends at 3 locations. I have never see the enforcers at QQ loop. I have seen the enforcers on a 504, 512, 501, but very rarely. Same for Dundas West and Broadview Station. Been a few times they have been at 510 stops.

Most of the times, the enforcers are at Union and Spadina.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

4510 is on 501 right now as, what I am assuming, a in service test. Currently westbound on 501 at Osgoode Stn.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

Anybody know where exactly it is headed ? Keeps on alternating between westbound and eastbound,but I believe it is headed eastbound.

 

[drum118]

4510 is back in the service bay and looks like it is a few days from entering service, since it was doing an in service test tonight. It was one of those cars showing the arrow in the opposite direction that it was traveling or flipping. It did a trip down Church St when I last saw it in service.

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

4510 is back in the service bay and looks like it is a few days from entering service, since it was doing an in service test tonight. It was one of those cars showing the arrow in the opposite direction that it was traveling or flipping. It did a trip down Church St when I last saw it in service.

Geez, 4510 has been fast to test and almost enter service. I wonder what the status on 4508 is.

 

[drum118]

Geez, 4510 has been fast to test and almost enter service. I wonder what the status on 4508 is.

4508 Still MIA after 21 days being here. 4510 has been here 12 days and could be 14-15 days when it goes into service, which is the norm now.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I think you mean Spadina Station and Union station, since 510 ends at 3 locations. I have never see the enforcers at QQ loop. I have seen the enforcers on a 504, 512, 501, but very rarely. Same for Dundas West and Broadview Station. Been a few times they have been at 510 stops.

Most of the times, the enforcers are at Union and Spadina.

I've seen them at St. Clar station a few times as well. Ther they will usually have three or four two will be by the main doors down to the subway and one will be where the hallway to the load platform is and another will be by the McDonalds.

 

[drum118]

I've seen them at St. Clar station a few times as well. Ther they will usually have three or four two will be by the main doors down to the subway and one will be where the hallway to the load platform is and another will be by the McDonalds.

Forgot about St Clair station, as I have been check there a few times. They are out there, but more a miss than a hit at other locations

 

[dowlingm]

Maybe these posts should be split into a fare inspection thread, but I did see inspectors at King and Bay 504 eastbound stop at about 5.15pm late last week