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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

drum118

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Those going to the Barns tomorrow, 4504 is sitting on track 7 at the west end at this time. Not sure if its the first or 2nd car from the doors.
 

drum118

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4506 was off loaded Monday at Hillcrest.

4404 was put onto the 4506 flat to be ship to QC. This makes 2 existing cars and prototype 4401 are now to have their welds fix.

4504 did 24+ hours of testing Sat and Sunday and in the service bay since its last trip. The GPS has it out in Lake Ontario the last 24 hours.

Could see 4507 come Friday and 4508 on Monday.
 

thettctransitfanatic

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504 is done with the Flexity conversion, which means the 501 Monday-Saturday conversion for Flexities will soon begin, which will signal the end of the ALRV'S
 

nfitz

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504 is done with the Flexity conversion, which means the 501 Monday-Saturday conversion for Flexities will soon begin, which will signal the end of the ALRV'S
Almost done, but not quite. I saw a 504 CLRV on Broadview yesterday. Looking at Nextbus right now, it's reporting car 4199 (along with 36 Flexities) is out on 504 currently. Looks like it arrived in Russell Yard a few minutes ago - but Transee shows it was out on 504B for PM rush leaving Russell at about 3:30 today. https://www.transsee.ca/triplist?a=ttc&fleet=4199

I'd expect them to hold off starting any on 501 until they've got a few more spares.
 

Towered

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Holy cow, how long does it take to get some of these things on the 505 and 506? Some people need accessibility.
 

DonValleyRainbow

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504 is done with the Flexity conversion, which means the 501 Monday-Saturday conversion for Flexities will soon begin, which will signal the end of the ALRV'S

I'd expect them to hold off starting any on 501 until they've got a few more spares.

506 most likely wont see a flexity until the end of 2019.

If not, you can expect Bombardier to be offering us some free extra Flexities as compensation for missing their deadline.

Don't forget they need to rotate out 67 of the delivered vehicles, and send them to Quebec for that welding problem.
 

steveintoronto

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Yeah...I get the distinct feeling that problem is far worse than being let on. There's really awful groaning coming from the region of the trucks, and when doing a sudden braking, the body shifts dramatically on the trucks, to the point that each bogie *appears* to be acting independently of what should be a synchronous application of brakes. The problem for passengers manifests in them being thrown around, even with small brake applications.

They not only 'grab' they do so as part of a 'sense and correct' loop (negative feedback servo) that is responding inequitably for each bogie. Something's very wrong...
 

robmausser

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Yeah...I get the distinct feeling that problem is far worse than being let on. There's really awful groaning coming from the region of the trucks, and when doing a sudden braking, the body shifts dramatically on the trucks, to the point that each bogie *appears* to be acting independently of what should be a synchronous application of brakes. The problem for passengers manifests in them being thrown around, even with small brake applications.

They not only 'grab' they do so as part of a 'sense and correct' loop (negative feedback servo) that is responding inequitably for each bogie. Something's very wrong...

I was under the impression that the sudden braking body shift was from a track brake

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_brake

The CLRV/ALRV's have track brakes, so I assumed the Flexities do too.

I thought the shifting was from an unequal force of track brakes "lifting" the car a bit.
 

smallspy

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I was under the impression that the sudden braking body shift was from a track brake

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_brake

The CLRV/ALRV's have track brakes, so I assumed the Flexities do too.

I thought the shifting was from an unequal force of track brakes "lifting" the car a bit.

The track brake is exactly what is causing those sensations.

It should be noted, that the brake system on the Flexities is a pretty complex beast. Rather than the positions of the brake handle actually causing a specific amount of brake force to be applied, the position of the brake handle will cause the streetcar to calculate a stopping point - regardless of the conditions or grade - and apply as much (or little) force as necessary to stop at that point.

As for the "lifting", that is due to each truck, having a limited amount of rotation, "squatting" under braking forces and causing a torsional force on the carbody - much in the same way as the front of a car will "dive" under hard braking. It's a much more complex sensation in the Flexities however, as the only vertical hinge is the one between the third and fourth modules.

Also, 4507 was offloaded this morning.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 

steveintoronto

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The track brake is exactly what is causing those sensations.

It should be noted, that the brake system on the Flexities is a pretty complex beast. Rather than the positions of the brake handle actually causing a specific amount of brake force to be applied, the position of the brake handle will cause the streetcar to calculate a stopping point - regardless of the conditions or grade - and apply as much (or little) force as necessary to stop at that point.

As for the "lifting", that is due to each truck, having a limited amount of rotation, "squatting" under braking forces and causing a torsional force on the carbody - much in the same way as the front of a car will "dive" under hard braking. It's a much more complex sensation in the Flexities however, as the only vertical hinge is the one between the third and fourth modules.
[...]

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
"Squatting" is exactly the sensation. It is probably a combination of a multiplicity of 'sense and correct' loops being complicated and disjointed by a loose mechanical coupling. It *feels* like it's putting enormous stress on the frame members (I desist from saying 'chassis' as I doubt there is one per-se in entirety).

As well as a rough ride, I'd see it as doing permanent and possibly catastrophic damage to the vehicle if not addressed. I'm really just projecting from vehicular experience with loose sub-assemblies, but it never ends well. I think BBD were covering their arses by recalling the affected units. It wasn't kindness on their part. It was liability, perhaps even criminal if personal injuries resulted.

I'd be interested in reading an engineering article on what the problem is, and how far it affects surrounding structure. What boggles me is that the TTC is claimed to have known of it from very early on. No huge surprise, as their engineers would have wondered "WTF?".

It may also be too easy to blame it on "Mexicans". There may be a design fault in the servo brake systems, but even a tight but buffered servo can only do so much to compensate for loose mechanics. I've read of Melbourne's Flexities displaying similar, and not touched by "Mexicans" at all. The assembly jigs may vary due to the slightly different track and loading gauge, but I'm just reaching...

Bottom line: They should ride a heck of a lot better when fixed. Intrinsically, the ride is excellent even on rough TTC street track. But when the brakes go on, hang on!
 

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