TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[Amare]

So is the TTC still putting ALRVs in service, or are they more or less retired? I’ve been watching the cars come into service along Queen and King, and I’ve only seen one ALRV out of at least two dozen streetcars.

If this is a normal thing, we might not see any more ALRVS by winter (the A’s are especially unreliable in the season)

The ALRVs have been dropping like flies lately, and it's been pretty much determined that the rehabilitation program some of them went through werent a success and didn't yield the desired results.

At this point, it is very likely that any ALRV that suffers significant damage from an accident, or has some sort of major component failure will be retired. There are 21 left according to the TTC, so we will be very lucky if we see them survive past the upcoming winter.

 

[wopchop]

Agreed, but I'd also say that choosing the vendor with the low ball bid without expecting repercussions was bad management as well.

OK, and? The situation is the situation. You cannot deal with the current situation with coulda, woulda, shouldas about bidding processes.

Which is a good and fair reason to carry on with the order we've placed.Same as above. But keep in mind the biggest delay in delivery of more streetcars was Bombardier. Had we ordered them from Alstrom Siemens, we'd likely have more streetcars by now.

Again, this is a hypothetical that has no bearing on the current contract or situation.

Better build quality, design and on-time delivery costs more money, I'm okay with that.

So you are OK with canceling an order in mid delivery and re-tendering the balance of the streetcars currently due from Bombardier? Because if you do that, you better believe that every supplier in the world has the TTC by the balls and will charge whatever they like.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The situation is the situation.

Ok

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I suppose one POV could be that the self inflicted damage Bombardier has done to themselves, evident by the lack of any streetcar orders from the USA, where the streetcar market is booming, is punishment enough. I'm not there yet, but I can appreciate the POV.

I wouldn't really say there's a big streetcar boom in the US. Mostly it seems to be one or two lines being built with whatever equipment they can get cheaply. Although there are many cities that do have some large streetcar/LRT infrastructure and they all have mixed fleets like most other cites around the world do. The main problem with the North American market for Bombardier isn't the lack of orders it's more the lack of cites that are buying new fleets.

 

[drum118]

I wouldn't really say there's a big streetcar boom in the US. Mostly it seems to be one or two lines being built with whatever equipment they can get cheaply. Although there are many cities that do have some large streetcar/LRT infrastructure and they all have mixed fleets like most other cites around the world do. The main problem with the North American market for Bombardier isn't the lack of orders it's more the lack of cites that are buying new fleets.

Don't know what you call 600+ cars on order, with delivery 2018-25???

Siemens has got most of the orders. China is doing Boston cars.

Anything under 10 cars has gone to Brockville, with cars being delivery to Milwaukee and Oklahoma City this year. They did Detroit, KC, Dallas and Cincinnati cars.

BBD built the first batch of cars for Minneapolis early 2000's and has never supply anymore cars for all their new routes, as well the first line expansion. Same issue with the frame connections and welds, but use rivets to deal with the issues. Those cars are to be phase out early 2020 and still very young cars

 

[Admiral Beez]

I wouldn't really say there's a big streetcar boom in the US..

Jeez. Don’t let the facts get in the way.

Thanks Drum.

 

[nfitz]

There are 21 left according to the TTC, so we will be very lucky if we see them survive past the upcoming winter.

Less than that. There's only 20 left with trackers, but four haven't been seen for days to weeks. So 16 tops. The last CEO report appears to say there are only 13 left.

 

[rbt]

Don't know what you call 600+ cars on order, with delivery 2018-25???

For context, this is about 18% of the global tram market; so pretty substantial. That's based firm orders for 3200 vehicles in 2016. There were about another 1200 options on top of that (some of which may have been exercised by now).


Nobody is expecting that order-rate to be continued under Trump budgets (2024 through 2030 will likely see a steep decline in US orders).

 

[dowlingm]

I suppose one POV could be that the self inflicted damage Bombardier has done to themselves, evident by the lack of any streetcar orders from the USA, where the streetcar market is booming, is punishment enough. I'm not there yet, but I can appreciate the POV.Early, is not on schedule. You don't get kudos for sandbagging the schedule.

The recent streetcars orders have been in handfuls - not missing much. They have almost the exactly right car for SEPTA - not sure about car height - and that would be a substantial buy. Just a question of where the cash is coming from. https://philly.curbed.com/2018/1/16/16882588/septa-new-trolley-proposal

 

[drum118]

The recent streetcars orders have been in handfuls - not missing much. They have almost the exactly right car for SEPTA - not sure about car height - and that would be a substantial buy. Just a question of where the cash is coming from. https://philly.curbed.com/2018/1/16/16882588/septa-new-trolley-proposal

There been talk that the existing system would be rebuilt to standard gauge and larger radius.

Underground stations would be rebuilt to deal with everything.

Bottom line, only talk since there is an strong anti streetcar board who prefer streetcars disappear and no funds to do anything at this time.

 

[smallspy]

There been talk that the existing system would be rebuilt to standard gauge and larger radius.

There has?

That must be news to SEPTA - they've been watching with baited breath how the Flexity cars are doing here.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[crs1026]

BBD built the first batch of cars for Minneapolis early 2000's and has never supply anymore cars for all their new routes, as well the first line expansion. Same issue with the frame connections and welds, but use rivets to deal with the issues. Those cars are to be phase out early 2020 and still very young cars

IIRC the early press reports about the TTC delays (back around 4407 or so) said that BBD was wanting to rivet the TTC cars as a solution to the problems they were having back then, but TTC stood its ground and demanded the cars be built the right way - no workarounds.

It speaks to BBD's lack of commitment to getting things right in the early parts of the project. It's anyone's guess whether they have truly learned their lesson.

- Paul

 

[drum118]

4484 has enter service as a 509 (BAEX) westbound on Queen at the Don, That makes 83 cars in service.

NOTE: The car is now an 504 (504A) westbound on King near Queen. Taken 17 days to in service after arrival.

Expect to see 4483 in service come July 8, 17 days after arrival

 

[drum118]

4487 is now tracking after been here 8 days and 4486 should be tracking next week since it only got delivery to the Barns on Tuesday this week, but off loaded on Friday.

 

[Admiral Beez]

There been talk that the existing system would be rebuilt to standard gauge and larger radius.

I don’t think the gauge is the issue, that’s addressed by axle length. Turning radius is the greater challenge, which could be addressed by route changes. Toronto is laid out in a grid pattern, so straight routes shouldn’t be the exception.