bbdfollower
New Member
Agreed. If we need those additional cars for the fleet, then not optioning up on the order to punish BBD for how they have executed against the existing contract seems like biting off the nose to spite the face.
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Agreed. If we need those additional cars for the fleet, then not optioning up on the order to punish BBD for how they have executed against the existing contract seems like biting off the nose to spite the face.
TOareaFan
Superstar
It is not clear to me why BBD would want the TTC to exercise the option (maybe PR ?) because I can't believe they would actually make money building them now (or, more accurately, a couple of years from now) at the original price.
rbt
Senior Member
These multi-year bids typically have some type of inflation built into them.
But yeah, I expect the real question is can we get Bombardier to expand the order to 100 units without a large per-unit cost escalation as a good-will gesture on their part.
crs1026
Superstar
Because all the jigs and tools are sitting there, paid for and calibrated. And the workforce can now assemble them in their sleep.
OK, material costs have risen.... but it's not the money pit you fear. That's why options are offered in the first place.
- Paul
TOareaFan
Superstar
M636RF
New Member
Building some in Kingston... Will they use extra space from the recent expansion they made to facilitate the Flexity Freedoms, or are they going to convert an existing production line to build these?
Maltesefalcon
New Member
It seems like they really are pumping out more cars. Good on them for that!
But I am a bit confused. Previous problems seemed to be with the supply chain letting them down according to statements in late 2017.
But suddenly.....it's an assembly bottleneck, resolved by adding a new line? Again good on them for doing something constructive.
That being said, makes no logical sense for BBD to schedule 76 for this year with the old setup, but with the new capacity it's 65? The mind boggles.
But I am a bit confused. Previous problems seemed to be with the supply chain letting them down according to statements in late 2017.
But suddenly.....it's an assembly bottleneck, resolved by adding a new line? Again good on them for doing something constructive.
That being said, makes no logical sense for BBD to schedule 76 for this year with the old setup, but with the new capacity it's 65? The mind boggles.
TOareaFan
Superstar
That Toronto Star tweet I linked to says 65 this year and 77 in 2019.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
wolfewood
Active Member
^ Admittedly in that instance those cars were old ones that were supposed to be destroyed but were instead sent to forest fire-ravaged communities in Northern Ontario as temporary shelters.
That said, throughout this whole saga, I've been kinda hoping we'd see a freight train with a fleet of streetcars like in old WWII newsreels of newly built tanks being transported.
That said, throughout this whole saga, I've been kinda hoping we'd see a freight train with a fleet of streetcars like in old WWII newsreels of newly built tanks being transported.
nfitz
Superstar
See how fast they leave the negotiating table.
No publicly-traded company puts considerations of possible business years away, ahead of huge costs now.
Nor would you, if you looked at the math behind it.
For widgets delivered the following month perhaps.
More likely here, the price would have some kind of basic escalation already built into it, and may be in a currency other than Canadian.
We do know the cost already though. Just look at the 2018 City of Toronto budget. Payment in 2018, 2020, and 2021. About $360 million total for 60 cars. You could probably look at previous budgets to figure out how they number and time period has changed, and reverse engineer both the escalator, and the foreign currency (if any), assuming the TTC budget folks are competent.
Though that assumption would probably make the exercise a waste of time ...
Quite possibly true.
We'll see what happens, and how much is paid eventually. Put a thumbtack in $6 million per car delivered 2020/21. It should be fun.
My guess is $12 million, delivered 2029-2033, for only 30 cars instead of 60.
nfitz
Superstar
Quite possibly.
The article is riddled with errors though, so who knows. There are already 2 production lines in Waterloo, and surely they'd have gone for two in Kingston, to churn out the 196 Metrolinx/Waterloo Flexities, and the 26 40.6-metre long Edmonton vehicles by 2021.
With the Waterloo cars substantially complete already, the delays from Metrolinx, and 106 Finch, Sheppard, and SRT vehicles cancelled, all that Kingston needs to do is knock out about 20 Metrolinx cars a year, and 10 Edmonton cars by late 2018, with 13 more in 2019 and 2020.
Easy to see that they now have the capacity to add start building TTC cars there too.
dowlingm
Senior Member
Can't help but think there is a quid pro quo for this extra Bombardier investment - like an understanding that the option order will happen
Richard White
Senior Member
I wonder when Bombardier will reach a critical mass in terms of their ability to produce orders. At some point they are going to overwhelm their facilities trying to make good on the delivery schedule.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
Could they not come up with a Toronto plant to build it. If they take too long to deliver all of them then the last of the new streetcars would get sent to the Halton Museum instead.