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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

crs1026 said:
It was spotted going thru Alliston late last week, so yes it's likely out there.

Edit: and now 4465 ready to ship.
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Late last week in Alliston ... so presumably 4464 was an early February delivery. So 4 delivered in January. And 2 so far in February (counting 4465 before it's hatched).
 
crs1026 said:
^ I guess it's a question of who we see as the organ grinder in this situation, and who is the monkey.

Can TTC go back and say, we want the same option but exactly one change, no price increase, everything as it is except the penalty clause? Of course they can. Does Bombardier have to accept that? Legally, no, but a negotiation is a negotiation. They do want the business, especially since their fixed costs are paid off already and any incremental order has an element of gravy to them. TTC may have more leverage than one might think.

TTC has to get out from the current sole source, don't-leave-us-because-no-one-else-will-marry-us position. In an ideal world that would happen once we have all the vehicles we need in the city, and we have a thirty year lifespan to address the unique points in our system. But maybe it's time to try other things. One would be to reprofile individual lines, cutting them off from the rest of the network to be sure but culling those 60 cars from the generic model to something more supply friendly. Cheap? Not in the short term. But better than handing Bombardier the whole thing on a cushion. The incremental $2.5M to buy another vendor's vehicle times 60 cars is $150m.... how much can we accomplish for that ? Would $2.5M per vehicle achieve a life extension for the least ratty remaining 60 CLRV's?

Or, just leave the buses on 505 or 506 until we have a solution.

- Paul
Click to expand...

Waiting for block obsolescence to replace important equipment is a really unfortunate Canadian habit. In a more rational world the TTC would have been continually adding small numbers of new streetcars, from a mix of manufacturers and models, over the 30 years since the CLRVs and ALRVs came into service. This might cost more in terms of parts commonality and volume pricing, but would avoid situations where problems with one procurement pose catastrophic risks to the system.

You’re seeing the same thing with the military. Buy a bunch of CF18s 30-plus years ago, do nothing to augment that fleet in the interim, and then watch it rust out as a single mass replacement program goes off the rails. This isn’t how other countries operate, for the most part.
 
allabootmatt said:
Waiting for block obsolescence to replace important equipment is a really unfortunate Canadian habit. In a more rational world the TTC would have been continually adding small numbers of new streetcars, from a mix of manufacturers and models, over the 30 years since the CLRVs and ALRVs came into service. This might cost more in terms of parts commonality and volume pricing, but would avoid situations where problems with one procurement pose catastrophic risks to the system.
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^This. The question is, what is the right incremental building block that gets the best price for those smaller orders. We got a hint of this with the ML-Bomb settlement, where the price rose on a smaller order as the per vehicle share of fixed costs went up.

Ten new vehicles a year every year likely isn't optimum, but a run of thirty every three years is probably closer. A run of sixty vehicles is probably pretty close to optimal.

I'm not opposed to that sixty vehicle order being retained by Bombardier, but only under terms that drive home the discipline that the last order lacked. TTC needs to set the tone for negotiation. So Bombardier has to eat the cost of flying in cabs from Europe? They dug the hole, they can occupy it. The only area being renegotiated is the one area where Bombardier has destroyed its credibility - delivery schedule. No reason that TTC shouldn't look them in the eyes. If they decline, then no loss - move on to the alternative procurement, and let the incremental obsolescence strategy begin.

- Paul
 
allabootmatt said:
Waiting for block obsolescence to replace important equipment is a really unfortunate Canadian habit. In a more rational world the TTC would have been continually adding small numbers of new streetcars, from a mix of manufacturers and models, over the 30 years since the CLRVs and ALRVs came into service. This might cost more in terms of parts commonality and volume pricing, but would avoid situations where problems with one procurement pose catastrophic risks to the system.
Click to expand...

It's not just a Canadian habit. A lot of American properties are subject to the same problem - and it all comes about from how they receive funding for projects. It's easy to get a small order for an incremental increase of the fleet size because of an extension - it gets wrapped up into that budget - but when it comes to fleet renewal, it's a fight.

In the TTC's defense, the original plan had the Flexities arriving over 6 years, allowing them to slowly remove the older cars from service as they failed. Obviously, things haven't worked out as they had intended to.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
Cobra said:
STM to receive 2 extra free Azur trains for delevary delays.

Instead of paying the penalties for the delays in delivery, STM gets 2 free trains in exchange.
Click to expand...

Worth noting that these penalties were tied to only six trains:

"Originally, the contract provided a penalty of $ 10,000 per day late. According to Mr. Schnobb, six trains were involved. In August 2014, the STM's board of directors had even suspended this penalty clause in order to maintain a peaceful climate. But the STM never gave up compensation, Schnobb said."​

http://www.ledevoir.com/societe/tra...-azur-supplementaires-et-gratuits-pour-la-stm
robmausser said:
Bombardier would need to procure the entire additional 60 car order for free for the TTC for it to be a similar fair deal.
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60 probably wouldn't be enough!
 
robmausser said:
Bombardier would need to procure the entire additional 60 car order for free for the TTC for it to be a similar fair deal.
Click to expand...

Well, I would tell them:
  • "you either redeem yourself by reducing the cost of the option on the 60 streetcars below market value (WAY Below) or you can kiss bidding for future TTC contracts goodbye"

See how fast they get to the negotiation table
 
Cobra said:
Well, I would tell them:
  • "you either redeem yourself by reducing the cost of the option on the 60 streetcars below market value (WAY Below) or you can kiss bidding for future TTC contracts goodbye"

See how fast they get to the negotiation table
Click to expand...

That only works if your threat is credible - that hasn't been established.

AoD
 
Cobra said:
Well, I would tell them:
  • "you either redeem yourself by reducing the cost of the option on the 60 streetcars below market value (WAY Below) or you can kiss bidding for future TTC contracts goodbye"

See how fast they get to the negotiation table
Click to expand...

If the option price is the same as the per unit price on the main order (as is typical)...and, as we have been told, the BBD bid was well under the next lowest bidder (so was below the price offered by all bidders)....and market prices have, likely, gone up since then......I do not think it would be hard to show that the price already meets the bolded part of your suggestion.
 
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