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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

M636RF

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Yes, February. I've seen nothing but streetcars on 506 all weekend. And now it's going to be warm for the next week, streetcars will be back.

Well today there are more buses running on the 506 than usual, but its not as bad as last week.

The auction for the 29 Salt Lake City ex-San Jose UTDC cars closed already. Only one was officially sold. The rest had “Reserve Partially Met” prices ranging from USD $850 to $1900. So far, I’ve been unable to determine the buyers. But except for the one “Sold” car, looks like they’re going to scrap.

Used cars aren't a possilitity. All the costs, trouble, and time that would be incurred just don't make sense.
 

drum118

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Well today there are more buses running on the 506 than usual, but its not as bad as last week.



Used cars aren't a possilitity. All the costs, trouble, and time that would be incurred just don't make sense.
What do you think TTC bought when they had the largest PCC fleet in the 60's as well in the late 50's???
 

crs1026

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How is the TTC - or the contractor - supposed to anticipate an almost historically wet winter and spring? When they drilled the boreholes in the fall, things were fine. The problems only arose when they went to excavate the ROW in the spring and found water at the bottom of the excavation.

I thought engineering for things like this were done on the basis of 100-year (or longer) projections. If the last spring was above the 100-year high mark, then that's impressive, but engineers are supposed to think for the long term. (The same principle is how the Fukushima nuclear plant had seawalls that were perfect for a 100-year tidal pattern but weren't high enough for a certain 1-in-500-years tidal wave, by the way).

It is certainly a no-brainer to appreciate that the whole Queensway line is damn close to water level, and the water table may rise every few years, boreholes or not.

- Paul
 

drum118

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Yes, but these are REALLY old cars and (I assume) not AODA compliant.
Of course they are old cars and non AODA compliant since they are almost the same that we have today that aren't AODA and only will exist until 2024/25 at best. The Salt Lake cars maybe in better shape than the ones we have now, but up to TTC to say yes or no.
 

Richard White

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It is certainly a no-brainer to appreciate that the whole Queensway line is damn close to water level, and the water table may rise every few years, boreholes or not.

You would think someone would have realised to check for issues with the water table. The area around high park has had so many man made changes over the years there is likely a record somewhere of what they did.

If they built something over what was once a swamp, lake or the gates to hell there ought to be a record of it. Once those records are located and analysed they would have a good idea of the potential site conditions. Common sense would tell you that if you build something on top of a lake or swamp that you might just have water penetration somewhere.
 

pstogios

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We should start talking about the very likely possibility that Snake Oil Co. will not deliver all the Flexities in the contract by 2019. I don’t care that they say they will fulfill the terms; their words mean nothing. What are the penalties in the contract when that occurs?
 

Richard White

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We should start talking about the very likely possibility that Snake Oil Co. will not deliver all the Flexities in the contract by 2019. I don’t care that they say they will fulfill the terms; their words mean nothing. What are the penalties in the contract when that occurs?

Personally I hope they do not. I know it would be difficult for the TTC but at the same time it would pretty much kill Bombardiers chances in Ontario. At this point, I don't feel sorry for them. They screwed up and now they have to fix their mistakes.
 

Maltesefalcon

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This January will be the best opportunity they have to catch up, as the original target was only three. If they do that then maybe they have a chance.
If you look at the remaining schedules month by month, for the most part they average 7 per month. The numbers jog back and forth a bit but six is usually preceeded or followed by eight to average out.
But it looks somewhat like the sort of "randomness" one would add, to make it look like the schedule was not simply pulled out of thin air.
Not only that why does the 2018 and 2019 tally vary just slightly if you compare each month? If you make 7 in March 2018 why can you only make 6 in March 2019? Surely they don't have it that finely tuned that far in advance. Good Lord they couldn't even predict two weeks ahead in December. And I've noticed they have ramped up to the exact same 7-8-7 quota for the last quarter of 2018 as they had(and failed to produce) in 2017.
Lets see what happens in three weeks.
 

nfitz

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High water table around the south end of Grenadier Pond. Boreholes were dug at the end of the previous year, before our wet spring.
Which is why you put in monitoring wells for 2-3 years.

Though really? City topo map says Grenadier Pond is about 76.0 m ASL, while Lake Ontario is about 75.0 m ASL.

A brief glance at 2016 data shows Lake Level was about 74.45 m for the last 3 months of the year. Look how this compares to norms:

upload_2018-1-9_1-29-19.png


Not bad for that time of year.

Looks like issue isn't it was low in late fall. But whoever did it, wasn't aware that it's normally (by design) higher in the summer. And they had planned to it being higher than normal this spring. Though obviously situation didn't help.

Yes, it was even worse. But this is the old "high water level" TTC excuse. Where the real answer is "we hire the low bidder for engineering design, and we very often end up with the ones who won't do it properly, and don't have the budget to think about it. Which is why engineering work is best not bid based soley on lowest price if you pass a minimum threshold.

I thought engineering for things like this were done on the basis of 100-year (or longer) projections. If the last spring was above the 100-year high mark, then that's impressive, but engineers are supposed to think for the long term.
For a permanent structure sure. Not so much for planning on when you can work on something.

But they are supposed to know the lake is generally significantly higher in the summer, and at least look up the planned Lake Ontario water level that the International Joint Commission is planning for the following year.
 

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nfitz

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This January will be the best opportunity they have to catch up, as the original target was only three.
Well there's already 4060 and 4061 for January. And the next two are close to shipping, with whatever part didn't come in time. And presumably there's 3 more they'd hope to get out. So 7.

They aren't that far off targets for just the last 3 months or so. The original schedule was 36 most years, and they shipped 16 in the last 3 months. So actually catching up lately, to the original schedule.

They might miss December 2019. Will there be that much sleep lost if they are all here by March 2020. Then they could have the additional 60 by December 2020.

What do you think TTC bought when they had the largest PCC fleet in the 60's as well in the late 50's???
They planned to keep those for years though.

We should (could) have 264 Flexitys in 36 months, even if they miss their targets a bit.
 

Maltesefalcon

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Four in October, three in November and six in December is thirteen, not sixteen. That brings them up to #59. If you wish to count 60 and 61 as December as well, then you have fifteen.
But you can't count them twice. Under those circumstances we start January count at #62. Bombardier would need to ship up to #68 to get back on track by end of January. Thats six in addition to #61 and #62.
Shouldn't be that hard. After all they said they could do ten in December.
 

nfitz

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Four in October, three in November and six in December is thirteen, not sixteen. That brings them up to #59. If you wish to count 60 and 61 as December as well, then you have fifteen.
Well I said shipped.

Hang on though. 4447 shipped in October ... or possibly on September 30, 2017 now I look at it closely. Ah, I see 15. Fair enough.

But you can't count them twice.
LOL ... I wouldn't if you'd catch that!

Really we should count them the way that TTC has been in their regular reports. The most recent of which was:
upload_2018-1-9_4-41-12.png


Which doesn't really match anything - but seems to be deliveries more than anything else.

So what's the rate. 17 first quarter. 21 second quarter, 17 third quarter. 22 4th quarter. And need to catch up 6.

Given in 2016 they had 2 in the 3rd quarter and 6 in the 4th quarter. And the 4 quarters of 2017 they were 3, 6, 7, and 13, I'm somewhat optimistic. The second quarter will be tough.
 

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smallspy

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Which is why you put in monitoring wells for 2-3 years.

When doing a new build, or a substantial reconstruction/reconfiguration, I'd agree with that.

But this was seen as a like-for-like rebuild, even if it really only sort of one. Would monitoring wells be necessary for that long?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 

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