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TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

No the region is actually delaying delivery of cars. It was talked about last night at Regional Council. The reason is there are tweaks in manufacturing process and overall design that Bombardier is making regularly that they also want made to the ones already assembled. It's much faster to have them made in Kingston than at the OMSF in Waterloo.

NOTE: These types of changes happen everywhere a new product starts being manufactured (most of the changes happening in the first 20-50 units). The 100th Boeing 787 or Airbus-Bombardier CS100 is far superior to the first one and also becomes assembled much quicker.

I don't want to belabour the issue and maybe this is better in the KW thread, but...

Re "No the region is actually delaying the cars". This statement on the surface could be true, but the real question is "why?" If the region has issues on its own end for something its responsible for, let's say track, then it's not the manufacturer's fault. If the region asked for a delayed deliver because they would rather the manufacturer get something right, then the region's delay is justifiable and not their fault.

If however there is another party to this that is the cause of the delay, then it's not the region's nor the manufacturer's fault. As I said to Drum, happy to read opinions here and I'll comment as necessary if I feel readers should be aware of other potential scenarios that are counter, or if more nuance to "x is delaying" or "it's y's fault" is required.

I'm suggesting, based on what I referenced in my first response to Drum, that there is more information.
 
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My question is around incentives for bombardier to meet and resolve the MTBF issues.

1) they’ve already hit the maximum penalties under the contract
2) it’s unlikely that the ttc would cancel the contract if they fail to meet it, having only 60 vehicles for the next 5 years while another company spins up a factory would more likely result in a full conversion to busses for most lines in the city
3) if bbd is close ttc is going to do nothing, even if they are not close ttc is in a bad position and will have to eat the ongoing maintenance or fix the issues themselves
3) bbd might not even want the extra 60 vehicles if they are losing money on them, for that matter they might not even want the remaining 140 vehicles
4) cost value equation for fixing these issues may be not good

What is ttcs options if the mtbf is not met. What if it stays where it is.
 
My question is around incentives for bombardier to meet and resolve the MTBF issues.

1) they’ve already hit the maximum penalties under the contract
2) it’s unlikely that the ttc would cancel the contract if they fail to meet it, having only 60 vehicles for the next 5 years while another company spins up a factory would more likely result in a full conversion to busses for most lines in the city
3) if bbd is close ttc is going to do nothing, even if they are not close ttc is in a bad position and will have to eat the ongoing maintenance or fix the issues themselves
3) bbd might not even want the extra 60 vehicles if they are losing money on them, for that matter they might not even want the remaining 140 vehicles
4) cost value equation for fixing these issues may be not good

Keeping in mind that I have not seen the contract, but going by what I've heard from various people involved in the project....

1) Correct. They continue to negotiate to resolve the situation of ongoing issues with the contract, and likely will continue to do so until the end of the term of the contract.
2) Extremely unlikely, for the reasons you have listed.
3) It seems that this is one of the things that is being included in the negotiations. The TTC seems to be quite adamant on this clause, as they did for the TR contract.
3(b))Unlikely. While no one here - myself included - is going to know to that kind of detail, it seemed as if the pricing of the LFLRV contract was predicated on the awarding of the various options on the contract for BBD to really make the contract profitable. Their supply chain (for better or worse) is already in place, and the development of the product will have been paid for by the first 204 vehicles. Anything above-and-beyond that number will be gravy.
4) Maybe from BBD's standpoint, and dependent on the outcome of the negotiations with the TTC. From the TTC's standpoint, their only option for fixing these problems is to buy 400 or 500 buses - along with the construction of 2 more garages to hold and maintain them - to replace the streetcar fleet. Which I think we can all agree is not feasible.

What is ttcs options if the mtbf is not met. What if it stays where it is.

If we assume that this clause is similar to other clauses in other contracts awarded elsewhere - there is likely an awarding of damages for each period of time (weekly, bi-weekly, monthly) that the MTBF is not met, possibly to an upset amount for each period. There may even be a per-vehicle basis for the calculation of that rate, but that seems to be less common (Amtrak is the only organization that I've heard of using that kind of clause).

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
It'll be interesting to see who responds to the RFI and how they handle the unique characteristics of the Toronto streetcar network. In the end, it might be cheaper to stick with Bombardier and hope that they get their act together at some point.

I would rather allow Dirigibles to dock at Commerce Court (IIRC it was designed to handle them) than let Bombardier build us more streetcars. Hell I would even let Doug Ford build a solar powered monorail before I let Bombardier build another streetcar for us.
 
I would rather allow Dirigibles to dock at Commerce Court (IIRC it was designed to handle them) than let Bombardier build us more streetcars. Hell I would even let Doug Ford build a solar powered monorail before I let Bombardier build another streetcar for us.
Hm, so basically you're neutral on the issue of Bombardier. ;)

Interesting about Commerce Court, I didn't know that. While we're waiting for the next Flexity here's an interesting article on blimps: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/05/the-dead-dream-of-the-dirigible/256758/Just don't let Doug Ford see it or he'll get ideas!
 
I would rather allow Dirigibles to dock at Commerce Court (IIRC it was designed to handle them) than let Bombardier build us more streetcars. Hell I would even let Doug Ford build a solar powered monorail before I let Bombardier build another streetcar for us.
Hmm, so you would be willing to pay more money (via taxes) for more streetcars? There would be a substantial premium involved with getting streetcars from a different supplier at this point.

However, I will say that it's worth going through the process as a display of showing Bombardier that we're not going to keep accepting their nonsense.
 
Hmm, so you would be willing to pay more money (via taxes) for more streetcars? There would be a substantial premium involved with getting streetcars from a different supplier at this point.

However, I will say that it's worth going through the process as a display of showing Bombardier that we're not going to keep accepting their nonsense.

If you go with the status quo Bombardier will think you do not care, if you start looking at other suppliers it gets them nervous. It also gives the TTC the optics of a level playing field. Without a valid reason the TTC cannot just cut Bombardier loose so no doubt they are publicly looking at their options to avoid any signs of foul play.
 
Hmm, so you would be willing to pay more money (via taxes) for more streetcars? There would be a substantial premium involved with getting streetcars from a different supplier at this point.

However, I will say that it's worth going through the process as a display of showing Bombardier that we're not going to keep accepting their nonsense.
I suspect that Bombardier knows that this is a public relations exercise; the people running Bombardier may be cheap (Mexican labour), incompetent, and heedless of their contractual obligations, but I don't think they're stupid. At the end of the day the TTC will buy from Bombardier and Bombardier knows this. Seems to me that this RFI is more for public consumption than anything else.
 
I suspect that Bombardier knows that this is a public relations exercise; the people running Bombardier may be cheap (Mexican labour), incompetent, and heedless of their contractual obligations, but I don't think they're stupid. At the end of the day the TTC will buy from Bombardier and Bombardier knows this. Seems to me that this RFI is more for public consumption than anything else.
Bombardier would be naive to think that. This is the City of Toronto we're talking about, where politicians make stupid decisions every single day so it may not actually be a public relations exercise. Although it may be expensive to acquire streetcars from a different supplier, we cant rule that out from happening in Toronto.
 
Bombardier would be naive to think that. This is the City of Toronto we're talking about, where politicians make stupid decisions every single day so it may not actually be a public relations exercise. Although it may be expensive to acquire streetcars from a different supplier, we cant rule that out from happening in Toronto.
I agree that there are a fair number of obtuse, short-sighted politicians running this city (e.g. our mayor and Councillor Ford: The Next Generation) but Bombardier knows that it has friends at the provincial and federal levels which is where the real money for public transit infrastructure comes from. Until Queen's Park stops treating Toronto like Wawa and until Toronto has a mayor with some moxie anything the TTC or the city says will be received by a large corporation like Bombardier with a smirk.
 
4450 is not only tracking, it made its first run to Main Station and heading back to the yard.

Looks like they got the bugs out of 4449 on the GPS issues like a few others cars, as well doing more running. If things remain as is, 4449 will spend the next day or 2 being prepare for service with Friday a good day to say in service.

Anyone see or heard where the rest of Sept cars are?? Wonder what the CEO will have to say at the next Monday meeting on these further delays and no reports are on line yet? Will not know until Dec meeting what the outcome of the RFI for other supplier will look like, unless that special meeting on Nov 28 will have something on it.

Sunday starts the fun on King St and out of town for a week starting Wed to see this in action first hand.

Until Queen Park stop telling TTC and others who to buy stuff from as well Ottawa, we are up a ship creek along with fools who sit on council until Next Oct Election. A good chunk of the current government will not be around after June election and have no faith in the other party's that they will do any better.
 
Did anyone definitively place 4450 as having been shipped from Thunder Bay (as opposed to from another facility)? It kinda appeared out of nowhere.

None of the previous known transporter cars are on the move from T Bay at this moment. Two are back in Thunder Bay at Bombardier, and the third may have gone to Kingston.

- Paul
 
Did anyone definitively place 4450 as having been shipped from Thunder Bay (as opposed from another facility)? It kinda appeared out of nowhere.

None of the previous known transporter cars are on the move from T Bay at this moment. Two are back in Thunder Bay at Bombardier, and the third may have gone to Kingston.

- Paul

Thunder Bay is currently the only facility assembling the vehicles for the TTC. Thunder Bay has 2 lines going. Bombardier has likely leased an additional 3 transporter cars for Thunder Bay as well as an additional 2 for Kingston. Logistically 3 transporter cars are not adequate for 2 production lines going at a time. especially if they take a week to get from Thunder Bay to Toronto and a week to get back.
 

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