TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[EastYorkTTCFan]

TTC like any other system can defer or cancel options when it's in their best interest. They can go else where for those options.

Based on TTC going out for an RFI and a meeting schedule in Octobers with suppliers, TTC is saying they may defer looking at the option pertaining to the contract until they know what the markets looks like as well what time frame they maybe looking for delivery. They will also have an idea what cost they maybe looking at for these cars. Once TTC has all this info, only then will they say which way they want to go to the point they may say bye bye BBD and we will see you about 10 years or so down the road bidding on our contracts then.

Since Siemens has the lion share of new cars in NA, they want to add TTC to that list of buyer for their cars as well keep the market to themselves. The 3-7 cars orders can be handle by small suppliers in the US at this time, but will not stop Siemens bidding on them.

I thought I was bad for posting, but yours took some doing to understand what you are saying.

I just tired of arguing with people's that only response is to bash bombardier all the time. I'm not going to win you over and your not going to win me over. I really don't care who they get the next vecheles from anymore. But when people want to twist facts like the star is to just add fuel to the fire it's just wrong .

 

[smallspy]

TTC like any other system can defer or cancel options when it's in their best interest.

Unless Bombardier has some really shitty contract lawyers, no, the TTC can not cancel or defer options "when it's in their best interest." Any major change to a contract like that generally requires an agreement between both sides.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[TOareaFan]

Unless Bombardier has some really shitty contract lawyers, no, the TTC can not cancel or defer options "when it's in their best interest." Any major change to a contract like that generally requires an agreement between both sides.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

I agree that deferring an option is a matter of negotiation.....but "cancelling" is really just not exercising the option. So when BBD does deliver #60 the TTC has an option to add more vehicles to the order at a pre-determined price (I understand that to be the same price as the original order)...if the TTC decides not to exercise that option then they have (in laymen's terms) cancelled the option.

Think of it in sports terms......the Jays signed Jose Bautista to a contract for 2017 with an option for 2018....there is a date on which they have to exercise, or not, that option. The Jays can't arbitrarily change the date of exercise....but they sure can cancel future years of the contract just by not exercising the option.

 

[nfitz]

I don't think we know the exact option terms. Until the 60th car; but also we've heard that by the 60th car Bombardier has to meet the performance criteria that they are so far failing.

So what's the penalty for not meeting the criteria? Does it delay the option?

So far, I think we seen evidence that both TTC and Bombardier have good lawyers; or perhaps simply evidence that Metrolinx has bad ones.

 

[smallspy]

I agree that deferring an option is a matter of negotiation.....but "cancelling" is really just not exercising the option. So when BBD does deliver #60 the TTC has an option to add more vehicles to the order at an pre-determined price (I understand that to be the same price as the original order)...if the TTC decides not to exercise that option then they have (in laymen's terms) cancelled the option.

Cancelling and not taking an option are two different things though. Yes, the TTC can elect not to take the option unilaterally, which very much sounds like what they are doing. They can not cancel the option without discussing it with Bombardier however, as there may be clauses that allow those options to be taken by third parties, or even by the seller rather than the buyer.

In the US transit scene, it is very common for options to be available to other transit agencies than just the one making the initial purchase. And in a way, that's what happened with the LFLRV order, as the options were taken up by Metrolinx for the various LRT projects.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[TOareaFan]

Cancelling and not taking an option are two different things though.

yes....but I think (I may be wrong) people saying "cancel" it are just less contract savvy than you and are using the laymen's language and what they really are saying is "don't exercise the option".

I personally think it is a mistake.....if, as we believe, the option price is the same price as the original order....those 60 vehicles would be getting purchased at far below today's market price and would represent a great bargain.

 

[robmausser]

I personally think it is a mistake.....if, as we believe, the option price is the same price as the original order....those 60 vehicles would be getting purchased at far below today's market price and would represent a great bargain.

I agree, especially if the TTC does not need these extra 60 or 100 right this minute.

The delay sucks now because we desperately need the 204 we ordered. But maybe if we just tell Bombardier we need the optional 60 in 2021, when we actually need them for 2024, they will technically show up on time in 2024

The streetcars we have been getting from Bombardier are excellent, the delay is the only concern.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Depends if the price is the same current price.

 

[dowlingm]

Just because TTC cancels the option does not mean the line stops at 204, since there is also the matter of the cars-in-lieu of performance penalty. Of course now that TTC is actively looking to other suppliers to potentially step up, it may be more attractive to simply demand cash to go towards the more expensive but presumably more timely/reliable alternative product.

 

[dowlingm]

Per CPTDB, 4445 is at Leslie Barns. Any sightings of 4444?

 

[drum118]

Per CPTDB, 4445 is at Leslie Barns. Any sightings of 4444?

4444 is currently sitting in the Barns service bay and is tractable.

 

[nfitz]

Just because TTC cancels the option does not mean the line stops at 204, since there is also the matter of the cars-in-lieu of performance penalty. Of course now that TTC is actively looking to other suppliers to potentially step up, it may be more attractive to simply demand cash to go towards the more expensive but presumably more timely/reliable alternative product.

Maybe ... though the commission asked staff to look at alternate suppliers. It never cancelled it's previous instruction to seek compensation with extra vehicles rather than cash.

4444 is currently sitting in the Barns service bay and is tractable.

Hopefully it's retractable as well, or else they'll have to put it aside and wait until they can run everywhere without poles.

 

[stanko]

Over in Vienna the first Bombardier Flexity tram (which is manufactured in the same city) is near completion and will be out for testing soon... it appears the Viennese aren't having scheduling problems with Bombardier like we are

http://www.bahnnews-austria.at/forum/viewtopic.php?p=45774&sid=edcdb788fcc9c4fd285dc7f93ae26ce6

 

[Richard White]

Over in Vienna the first Bombardier Flexity tram (which is manufactured in the same city) is near completion and will be out for testing soon... it appears the Viennese aren't having scheduling problems with Bombardier like we are

View attachment 121862
http://www.bahnnews-austria.at/forum/viewtopic.php?p=45774&sid=edcdb788fcc9c4fd285dc7f93ae26ce6

It may be because of the sheer volume of cars being built over there. In North America streetcars are still not that popular in terms of transit, in Europe virtually every city has a tram network.

Does anyone know if there are any substantial differences between the Toronto model and the Viennese model that could account for the delay.

 

[Johnny Au]

It may be because of the sheer volume of cars being built over there. In North America streetcars are still not that popular in terms of transit, in Europe virtually every city has a tram network.

Does anyone know if there are any substantial differences between the Toronto model and the Viennese model that could account for the delay.

Even a city as small as Wrocław has an extensive streetcar network.