TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[Admiral Beez]

Turning radius is the only major issue.

i thought flat floor was?

 

[rbt]

Turning radius is the only major issue.

i thought flat floor was?

It's kinda the combination of the 2. Turning radius (both left/right and up/down) is much easier to solve when there is abundant space underneath the vehicle.

Combine that with the more powerful motors for the steeper than typical hills (more power usually means bigger in size) and it seems to get difficult to squeeze everything in.

I've heard (probably on UT) that Bombardier put a powered bogie under the articulated joint. That's pretty unusual and likely a special TTC thing.

 

[Steve X]

It's kinda the combination of the 2. Turning radius (both left/right and up/down) is much easier to solve when there is abundant space underneath the vehicle.

Combine that with the more powerful motors for the steeper than typical hills (more power usually means bigger in size) and it seems to get difficult to squeeze everything in.

I've heard (probably on UT) that Bombardier put a powered bogie under the articulated joint. That's pretty unusual and likely a special TTC thing.

I think they are one of the most customized Flexity's around. Even the Flexity Berlin didn't have this much deviation from the norm. The first 20 cars still need the final ramp design replacement. I believe only the recent 2 or 3 cars are the true final product.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I've heard (probably on UT) that Bombardier put a powered bogie under the articulated joint. That's pretty unusual and likely a special TTC thing.

Yes as the centre bogie/truck on the ALRVS is ubderpowed and makes it hard for them to function on steep hills under certain conditions.

 

[Steve X]

Yes as the centre bogie/truck on the ALRVS is ubderpowed and makes it hard for them to function on steep hills under certain conditions.

They also need the Flexity to be able to push or pull another Flexity out of a tunnel and up the Bathurst slope under the worst conditions. An ALRV can't do that well.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

They also need the Flexity to be able to push or pull another Flexity out of a tunnel and up the Bathurst slope under the worst conditions. An ALRV can't do that well.

Yes I think I heard something about it taking 10 clrv to push a stuck ALRV up the Bathurst Street hill when it was wet in the fall.

 

[smallspy]

It's kinda the combination of the 2. Turning radius (both left/right and up/down) is much easier to solve when there is abundant space underneath the vehicle.

Precisely. On something like a CLRV or a PCC, it was very easy to configure them for different track gauges as the car is riding on top of the truck. Undo all of your various electrical and plumbing connections, and you can rotate the trucks a full 360 degrees. With low floor vehicles, the car is completely enveloping the truck, and so it is either fixed to the car body (which is a very common design) or allowed a very small amount of rotation.

There were a number of other issues at play in the design, such as full axles rather than the use of independent wheelsets, which also greatly complicate things.

Combine that with the more powerful motors for the steeper than typical hills (more power usually means bigger in size) and it seems to get difficult to squeeze everything in.

Not just more powerful motors, but more of them as well. The Flexities have to be capable of handling an 8+% grade. That in and of itself doesn't sound that impressive, until you realize that means that it needs to be capable of hauling itself and a dead unit up that grade.

I've heard (probably on UT) that Bombardier put a powered bogie under the articulated joint. That's pretty unusual and likely a special TTC thing.

The Flexities here in Toronto don't use Jacob's bogies - that is where the truck is located underneath an articulation. But all of the trucks on each Flexity are powered.

Yes I think I heard something about it taking 10 clrv to push a stuck ALRV up the Bathurst Street hill when it was wet in the fall.

You seem to hear a lot of things, Thomas.

The TTC tested hauling a dead Flexity up Bathurst with 2 CLRVs, and had no problem.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[dowlingm]

There was a political decision to go with 100% low floor rather than 70% low floor. This probably did make things a bit harder given the other caveats in the system. That said, I believe more manufacturers will offer a 100%LF car now than would have then, but that is hardly the TTC's only demand when it comes to the downtown network.

 

[Napoleon]

There was a political decision to go with 100% low floor rather than 70% low floor. This probably did make things a bit harder given the other caveats in the system. That said, I believe more manufacturers will offer a 100%LF car now than would have then, but that is hardly the TTC's only demand when it comes to the downtown network.

I think this was likely a mistake. I've been on the 70% low floor version of the Flexity and it seems to fit way more people. I just find the seating in the 100% low floor version rather awkward. It might not be true, but my perception is that the density of passengers that fit on the new cars is lower than the density on the old ones.

 

[dowlingm]

Steve Munro covered that particular one here: https://stevemunro.ca/2007/11/09/the-evolution-of-a-streetcar-specification/

This change will have a significant effect on the models offered by maunfacturers to the TTC. Those we have seen in Toronto to date are not 100% low floor, and in a way this sends bidders back to the drawing boards.

The reference that “… the Commission has determined …” is intriguing because there has not been a public meeting of the Commission at which such a decision could have been made. Have the technical and cost implications of this position been explained to the Commissioners?

 

[am29]

Question: If I get on at a subway station, grab a transfer for POP, subway down to Spadina station, get on the street car going South, and then I miss my stop, can I get off and take the street car going north again to catch my stop? Or will I be fined $200+ for illegal use of street car?

 

[khris]

Question: If I get on at a subway station, grab a transfer for POP, subway down to Spadina station, get on the street car going South, and then I miss my stop, can I get off and take the street car going north again to catch my stop? Or will I be fined $200+ for illegal use of street car?

The transfer is not time based, and you can only go in one direction of travel. So, no you can't do that.

 

[rbt]

Question: If I get on at a subway station, grab a transfer for POP, subway down to Spadina station, get on the street car going South, and then I miss my stop, can I get off and take the street car going north again to catch my stop? Or will I be fined $200+ for illegal use of street car?

If you paid cash or tokens this trip would require 2 fares. Presto has not changed the fare requirements; it is also 2 fares.

 

[Megaton327]

If you paid cash or tokens this trip would require 2 fares. Presto has not changed the fare requirements; it is also 2 fares.

However, Presto is currently not implemented correctly--every time I have used it in this manner, the return streetcar tap was billed $0.00 as a transfer, incorrectly, yielding a free ride, because it's programmed as a free 2-hour transfer with a "no tapping on the same route twice or you get charged again" restriction; so tapping at a subway station, riding to Spadina and taking the 510 south within the fare-paid zone using paper POP, then tapping to come back north has always been free for me. Some people on here have been adamant that this isn't the case but every time I've done it, including recently, in various combinations of stations/surface vehicle routes, the return trip has been free, so my experience is that this is still the case.

 

[nfitz]

However, Presto is currently not implemented correctly--every time I have used it in this manner, the return streetcar tap was billed $0.00 as a transfer, incorrectly, yielding a free ride, because it's programmed as a free 2-hour transfer with a "no tapping on the same route twice or you get charged again" restriction; so tapping at a subway station, riding to Spadina and taking the 510 south within the fare-paid zone using paper POP, then tapping to come back north has always been free for me.

Except that you should tap on the streetcar for each leg, unless it's a short-turn. The paper transfer would look rather odd heading north on Spadina, depending which station it is (say Bathurst).

Maybe you are seeing free rides on 510 with two consecutive rides in two directions, but I can say it certainly doesn't happen on 506, with numerous short trips back and forth dropping off and picking up children at different places for each child.