TOareaFan
Superstar
If the TTC got the money from the feds....invoicing BBD would be double billing....now the feds might want to get their money back from BBD but, somehow, i doubt they will.
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pstogios
Senior Member
It's the Feds that should be invoicing BBD. Or, deduct that amount from any bailout they are still working on for this horseshit company.
$13M from taxpayers' pockets. I'm fuming. Yet another scar on BBD's record.
nfitz
Superstar
It's the CLRV overhaul that's been driven by Bombardier. The ALRV overhaul, is because it's the alternative to the 60 extra Flexities that TTC now needs to provide full service.
It has nothing to do with BBD. The current fleet plan is to have the ALRVs running even after all the 204 Flexities arrive. So why should BBD pay?
This has been discussed extensively before.
dowlingm
Senior Member
My recollection is that 30 ALRVs were being refurbed, whereas now it seems that virtually every ALRV not yet decommissioned will be spared, and will still need replacing within a decade.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
The TTC has to meet its accessibility requirements by 2025. That means low-floor streetcars or wheelchair lifts for the refurbished streetcars (if they go that route).
They could keep the refurbished streetcars without wheelchair lifts for rush hours use, tour trams, charters, or as spares or extras. For regular use, they would not be able to use them.
They could keep the refurbished streetcars without wheelchair lifts for rush hours use, tour trams, charters, or as spares or extras. For regular use, they would not be able to use them.
TransitBart
Senior Member
But we are living in 2016, a year that has streetcar shortage in all deployment plans. But for 23 new vehicles, the entire current fleet us at end of life. The current order for the Flexities will not be complete until 2019. The angst over delivery has delayed commitment to a further re-order. This refurbishment gives a total of ~254 in-service vehicles by end of 2019. Not a lot. No flexibility there. To hell with AODA. The rest of us would just like to get to work and back. I'll take a Flexity, a Schmexity, or a ALRV. Who cares as long as it shows up?
drum118
Superstar
Come on, you know better.
The plan from Day One was to have the ALRV scarp by 2015 or as sooner, once there was enough new cars before then.
The Current CEO of TTC see what I and others were saying back as far as 2004 when talks got underway for getting a new fleet that you were replacing one cattle car system with another by going to 204 in place of 252 that was needed to expand the service, but most of all, deal with pent up demand of new ridership. Then there was the accessibility riders that were finally able to get on a car.
You want to go one step further, the decision to order the extra 60 cars was to take place in early 2015 when the 60th car show up. They are over 12 month late or so past that date now for the 60th car to the point we only have 23 and most likely will not see that 60th car more than 2 years late than plan.
So you are saying because TTC decided to rebuilt the ALRV to deal with this 2 year late delivery of the 60th car as well trying to meet ridership demand that they should not back charge BBD for the cost of doing it??? If TTC was in any other province other than Quebec and Ontario, Noticed of Termination would have been given to BBD now and told they would be on the hock for all cost in maintaining the existing fleet and all cost for delay as well any extra cost the New fleet exceeded the contract with BBD. No business would do what you are saying and you should know better.
Unless 4402 is ship on Friday, write this year of for the flaw delivery schedule.
Time for TTC stop playing around and put the tender out for the 60 cars with an option to assume BBD order after x date if x cars not here even if means waiting a few more years for them.
Based on this mess, BBD has no hope of getting their cars built and sold in NA, unless they are giving the cars away a rock bottom price.
Steve X
Senior Member
At this point, I'm predicting only 27 or 28 will show up. Delivery and in service is two very different thing. Delivering 3 at the last week of December doesn't mean it would make it into service in 2016 nor January 2017. Unless one shows up this week and 7 more delivered every 2 weeks, we won't see 30 in service by end of 2016.
TTC should put out a new tender if it's clear they can't make 30 this year. Probably would be very clear by October. They should do 60 plus an option for 100+. Time to cut down the 204 order since the last car won't be showing up in the next 5 years at this rate.
drum118
Superstar
Who care, MTO who has a 2018-19 deadline for TTC to have Flexity on all their routes so the accessibility community has the same rights to travel east-west that they can't today.
Yes there is a 2025 deadline for everything, but MTO can override that, like they did for the lowfloor bus timetable.
As to your
, I will be one of the people backing the Accessibility Community even it means going to the Human Right Commission to see TTC comply having new cars on every line by 2018-19 regardless if lines aren't fully converted. I'm not a member of the Accessibility Community.
TTC can use what every they can up to 2025 for regular service because of this mess so long the Accessibility Community has use of the new cars on any of TTC Streetcar lines.
nfitz
Superstar
They've already stated that once all 204 Flexities are here, the refurbished ALRVs would only be used for rush-hour service on 504. There would also be enougn Flexities on 504 to provice accessible service - but they'd only run every 4 minutes.
dowlingm
Senior Member
Even with refurbs the ALRVs are going to struggle in the winter as they are still air-based and they will still lack AC in the summer. They might survive past 2024 in some form but it shouldn't be for long, especially given their MTBF record.
salsa
Senior Member
Things that we're getting for less than $13 M:
- TTC Bridges/Structures Maintenance - $4,731,500
- Line 2 (Bloor-Danforth) ATC Resignalling - $4,500,000
- Stations Transformation (incl Zone Hubs) - $9,185,500
- Reconstruction of Streetcar Overhead - $8,219,000
- Platform Modifications to Accommodate Articulated Buses - $10,000,000
- Easier Access Phase III - $3,475,000
- AODA Requirements - Subway Fleet, Buses, Streetcars - $5,163,500
- 201 Wheel-Trans Buses - $4,345,000
- Bus Stop Improvements for Accessibility - $10,000,000
- Tunnel & Station Leak Remediation Program - $4,892,500
- Eglinton West and East LRT Planning & Design - $7,000,000
- Eglinton Connects Streetscape Improvements and Cycle Tracks - $8,900,000
- West Toronto Railpath Extension - $11,750,000
- East Don Trail - $11,250,000
- Bike Share Toronto Expansion at 50 TTC stations - $1,250,000
- Midland Avenue Multi-Use Trail - $4,500,000
- New mid-block crossings to transit stops - $1,500,000
- Missing sidewalk links - $1,765,000
pstogios
Senior Member
In other words, many many things are cheaper than the $13 M we are stuck with spending now that BBD has stiffed us.
nfitz
Superstar
Which part of this 13M is nothing to do with BBD did yoiu miss?
The CLRV rebuild is because of BBD. The ALRV rebuild is because John Tory is too Fording cheap to pony up money for enough new streetcars.
salsa
Senior Member
Sorry, but Bombardier is still partially at fault here for the lack of interest in ordering additional streetcars.
Josh Colle: "Toronto should not spend another cent toward extending its streetcar order until the manufacturer comes through with vehicles already purchased and repeatedly delayed. It just seems totally absurd to me that we would write another cheque when we haven’t even received the products we bought in 2008.”
Josh Colle: “I want to get the fourth car from Bombardier long before we start discussing putting aside those kind of capital dollars that we just don’t have,”
Andy Byford: "We’re not in a rush to give them extra orders until they can prove that they can deliver on the base order,”
Josh Colle: “I want to get the fourth car from Bombardier long before we start discussing putting aside those kind of capital dollars that we just don’t have,”
Andy Byford: "We’re not in a rush to give them extra orders until they can prove that they can deliver on the base order,”
These quotes were all said over a year ago. But with all the new excuses, missed deadlines and broken promises that have cropped up since then, I don't think the city's confidence in BBD is getting any better. As a result, we may end up squandering the opportunity to get these additional streetcars at the best possible price.