TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[crs1026]

I wouldn't call that an 'all out' refurb. Lots of bondo and welding rod, yes. But no life extension for the electricals. Those interiors are pretty worn, too. Can't tell from the photos whether the running gear is getting much attention. They will run for a little longer - the rush hour tripper idea is a good one - but it's time to replace the whole fleet, period.

- Paul

 

[pstogios]

So how is the snake oil company doing on their new new new delivery "schedule"?

Sometimes it's best not to ask questions you won't like the answer for.
Just do this instead.

 

[wolfewood]

I wouldn't call that an 'all out' refurb. Lots of bondo and welding rod, yes. But no life extension for the electricals. Those interiors are pretty worn, too. Can't tell from the photos whether the running gear is getting much attention. They will run for a little longer - the rush hour tripper idea is a good one - but it's time to replace the whole fleet, period.

- Paul

That's certainly what I'd like to see. I respect that mixed traffic streetcar service is less than desirable in much of the city but I also think Toronto's streetcar system is a unique aspect of our city we should encourage, rather than deride/ignore. I'd love to see more streetcar lines built downtown and in the old city.

Besides, we have four rail lines cutting across the densest parts of the city. Already built and probably cheaper to upgrade than building new LRTs or subway lines would ever be. Obviously the streetcar system could never fully fulfill the demand there is for transit downtown (that is, we need a relief line subway still) but if there was actual political will to give streetcars as much priority as possible through the core, they'd probably be able to handle the demand for transit service. Certainly far better than they do now.

 

[DSC]

The "use the older cars as rush-hour trippers' idea will not really fly, at least not for too much longer. Don't forget that under the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act (AODA) all vehicles must be accessible by 2015. Undoubtedly exceptions can be made for historic vehicles used in parades etc but I bet they cannot be used in regular service. Of course, the AODA also demands accessible subway stations and I doubt that the TTC can possibly complete this by then ...

 

[smallspy]

I wouldn't call that an 'all out' refurb. Lots of bondo and welding rod, yes. But no life extension for the electricals. Those interiors are pretty worn, too. Can't tell from the photos whether the running gear is getting much attention. They will run for a little longer - the rush hour tripper idea is a good one - but it's time to replace the whole fleet, period.

- Paul

They are replacing all of the electrical, pneumatic and mechanical gear with rebuilt equipment from stores, so yeah, it's not completely insubstantial. But modernized equipment, it is not. When it is all said and done, it should buy another 7 or 8 years of life at the absolute most.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[pstogios]

The "use the older cars as rush-hour trippers' idea will not really fly, at least not for too much longer. Don't forget that under the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act (AODA) all vehicles must be accessible by 2015. Undoubtedly exceptions can be made for historic vehicles used in parades etc but I bet they cannot be used in regular service. Of course, the AODA also demands accessible subway stations and I doubt that the TTC can possibly complete this by then ...

Do you think the snake oil company gives two cents?

I wonder if the AODA provides a further basis for a lawsuit against Bombardier Snake Oil Inc. since their incompetence will force the TTC into noncompliance.

 

[innsertnamehere]

So I noticed this thread was started almost exactly 10 years ago... crazy to think 10 years later we still have only 17 streetcars. This fleet replacement was a Miller era project.. that is playing out well over a decade later.

 

[nfitz]

That's part of the reason that cancelling the contact and retendering, isn't going to get us streetcars any faster. Even if Bombardier fails completely, and only ever achieves 24 streetcars a year, rather than the 50 promised, they'll have the contract completed in 2023.

If we start again, we might not see car 18 until 2023!

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The "use the older cars as rush-hour trippers' idea will not really fly, at least not for too much longer. Don't forget that under the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act (AODA) all vehicles must be accessible by 2015. Undoubtedly exceptions can be made for historic vehicles used in parades etc but I bet they cannot be used in regular service. Of course, the AODA also demands accessible subway stations and I doubt that the TTC can possibly complete this by then ...

Is there any chance of the TTC being fined for AODA violations due to Bombardier's tardiness?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Is there any chance of the TTC being fined for AODA violations due to Bombardier's tardiness?

The fines would be added to the TTC's lawsuit to Bombardier.

 

[P23]

Is there any chance of the TTC being fined for AODA violations due to Bombardier's tardiness?

The provincial government would just be fining themselves by proxy. And if that government had funded the TTC more adequately the work would probably have been a bit speedier. Even then, converting ~69 subway stations to be accessible (including second entrances required by new fire regulations) is a huge, time-intensive task no matter how much money you throw at it.

 

[Markster]

The "use the older cars as rush-hour trippers' idea will not really fly, at least not for too much longer. Don't forget that under the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act (AODA) all vehicles must be accessible by 2015. Undoubtedly exceptions can be made for historic vehicles used in parades etc but I bet they cannot be used in regular service. Of course, the AODA also demands accessible subway stations and I doubt that the TTC can possibly complete this by then ...

I must say, I don't see where it says that 100% of vehicles at all times, must be accessible, no exceptions:
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/110191#BK35

And it's pretty clear that the existing streetcars are not being made totally illegal:

Transition, existing vehicles
40. (1) Conventional transportation service providers are not required to retrofit vehicles that are within their fleet as of July 1, 2011 in order to ensure that the vehicles meet the accessibility requirements of sections 53 to 62. O. Reg. 191/11, s. 40 (1).

At best, I imagine that the TTC has an Accessibility Plan to convert the streetcar lines to accessible vehicles, because that is following the spirit of the law, and they're doing their best to make that happen in a timely manner. Frankly, my reading of the law itself seems to indicate that the existing streetcars are forever exempt, and that WheelTrans is an acceptable solution, at least for meeting the bare-minimum.
The TTC is working to improve things well beyond that bare minimum, and I really don't see where it says that they flat out cannot use the old streetcars in occasional service in perpetuity.

 

[nfitz]

I must say, I don't see where it says that 100% of vehicles at all times, must be accessible, no exceptions:
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/110191#BK35

Good job too, with the buses not being 100% accessible.

I thought the previous conclusion on the many other times this has come up, was for a frequent service, if every 2nd vehicle was accessible, the act was being met.

If streetcars are coming every 2 minutes (as they do in rush hour, on 504, which is the only route and time they are currently proposing to use the ALRVs after the 204 new streetcars arrive), then an accessible streetcar every 4 minutes is fine. It's still more frequent than most bus routes and even Line 3 or Line 4.

In the same way, not every subway entrance needs to be accessible - just one per station. Quite frankly, this is a more serious issue in my mind, given how far you have to go for some stations to get to the next entrance.

 

[wolfewood]

Good job too, with the buses not being 100% accessible.

I thought the previous conclusion on the many other times this has come up, was for a frequent service, if every 2nd vehicle was accessible, the act was being met.

If streetcars are coming every 2 minutes (as they do in rush hour, on 504, which is the only route and time they are currently proposing to use the ALRVs after the 204 new streetcars arrive), then an accessible streetcar every 4 minutes is fine. It's still more frequent than most bus routes and even Line 3 or Line 4.

In the same way, not every subway entrance needs to be accessible - just one per station. Quite frankly, this is a more serious issue in my mind, given how far you have to go for some stations to get to the next entrance.

This sums up exactly what I was imagining with using the refurbished cars as trippers. The fact that they're unlikely to last more than 10 years, as crs1026 and smallspy have said, makes me think this would've been a great plan if we were actually getting our Bombardier streetcars on time. More likely they'll end up in general service until they're completely run into the ground lol

 

[Johnny Au]

The CLRVs and the ALRVs are being grandfathered in, but not for long; within a few decades, they would very well end up being used for scrap metal, museum artifacts, or for parades and charters.