TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[dowlingm]

at least it wouldve given them enough power to pull into the terminals instead of stopping dead in the middle of the streets. what if one of them died while in the middle of the intersection.....

Need a battery system (so just the mitrac bit) but with enough power to get it to a "terminal". There's only so many cars you can hold in the few loops downtown so you gotta hope some will make it to Spadina. All this during AM rush when the cars are stuck in traffic anyway and it's below freezing enough that you probably need some heat for the car if not the humans on it. Probably cheaper and more efficient to get additional hydro capacity both in terms of facilities but also a more agile system. The problem is that TTC power dudes have probably had that on their wishlist for years but it never got anywhere because low taxes and fare freezes uber alles.

 

[rbt]

ok now youre going to what if a what if....critical infrastructure needs at least 1 level of backup no matter how small the chance of failure is because its never 0% especially if the whole streetcar network is tied to 1 source (correct me if im wrong). At least they split the power for the subway. The downtown core was almost paralysed this morning

Until very recently (see Front Street Hydro tunnel) there was really only 1 electrical grid feeding downtown. Getting ties into 2 independent feeds was basically impossible. Yes, TTC should have a backup for their own systems, but I doubt much thought was made for backups when the entirety of downtown was under a single point of failure (under Toronto Hydro's care).

The Front Street tunnel fixed that for Toronto Hydro. TTC's next electrical revamp (every 30 years?) will likely fix their end.

So, basically it's a matter of funding. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if an accountant somewhere at the TTC had a line-item for it already; or to find it's been deferred or unfunded for a decade.

 

[cplchanb]

Until very recently (see Front Street Hydro tunnel) there was really only 1 electrical grid feeding downtown. Getting ties into 2 independent feeds was basically impossible. Yes, TTC should have a backup for their own systems, but I doubt much thought was made for backups when the entirety of downtown was under a single point of failure (under Toronto Hydro's care).

The Front Street tunnel fixed that for Toronto Hydro. TTC's next electrical revamp (every 30 years?) will likely fix their end.

So, basically it's a matter of funding. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if an accountant somewhere at the TTC had a line-item for it already; or to find it's been deferred or unfunded for a decade.

really goes to show just how poor our city infrastructure is compared to other "world class" cities. It took 60 years just to get a new power line built and all the while hundreds of new buildings just keep on sprouting up yearly

 

[TOareaFan]

It's March!!!!! How many new streetcars are we expecting?

 

[crs1026]

It's March!!!!! How many new streetcars are we expecting?

This question is becoming the transit enthusiast's equivalent of the kids in the back seat chanting "Are we there yet?" ;-)

Considering the transporter from the last shipment only arrived back in Thunder Bay this morning, I'd say no one is in any hurry yet.

- Paul

 

[W. K. Lis]

Sorry, not PRIMOVE but MITRAC. See link.

The MITRAC Energy Saver enables catenary free operation for short distances and as a part of the BOMBARDIER PRIMOVE solution also for longer distances. Additionally, the storage system makes it possible to continue operation in case of maintenance work or power failures in the grid. This can be crucial especially for rescue operations in tunnels to reach the next station allowing save evacuation of the passengers.

 

[nfitz]

Isn't Mitrac the Bombardier train management system? It's on trains that don't have Energy Saver.

Did such technology exist when the current Flexities were specced back in 2006?

 

[Duck]

Were any streetcars stranded in difficult-to-evacuate positions today?

I guess what I'm getting at is: Any of these short-term energy storage solutions are not a solution for an hour-long outage. They might help limp the train to a safer place to evac - but the beauty of Streetcar/LRT is that... you just open the doors and step off. It's not like you're stranded in a tunnel a kilometre from a platform or up 20 m in the air.

 

[johntauren]

Were any streetcars stranded in difficult-to-evacuate positions today?

There is very few such positions anywhere on the system - the only ones would be in the tunnels at Spadina and Queens Quay to Union, as well as under the Gardiner at Humber Loop.
Only Union section was affected, and even then it's not a long distance between stops.

 

[innsertnamehere]

St Clair tunnel too.

 

[nfitz]

St Clair tunnel too.

Power wasn't out on St. Clair. Subway would be bigger issue - though not sure how far trains can get without power - and the downtown stations are close together.

In Montreal, the trains from the 1960s and 1970s could mostly get to the next station when the power failed - presumably the technology has advanced since then.

 

[johntauren]

St Clair tunnel too.

St Clair West (there's not a tunnel at St Clair station) isn't constrained like the other tunnels are, except for probably the ramps. But even they are larger to accommodate buses as well.

 

[Duck]

In Montreal, the trains from the 1960s and 1970s could mostly get to the next station when the power failed - presumably the technology has advanced since then.

I'm just wondering, what's your source for that? They certainly don't have any energy storage system on any of the trains - except kinetic energy. I'm guessing you read somewhere about the design of the track geometry in Montreal - which is mostly optimized in such a way that there is a downhill grade exiting a station and an uphill grade entering the next one. If a train was moving fast enough on the "horizontal" it could coast into the next station. Is that what you're referring to?

 

[nfitz]

I'm just wondering, what's your source for that? They certainly don't have any energy storage system on any of the trains - except kinetic energy. I'm guessing you read somewhere about the design of the track geometry in Montreal - which is mostly optimized in such a way that there is a downhill grade exiting a station and an uphill grade entering the next one. If a train was moving fast enough on the "horizontal" it could coast into the next station. Is that what you're referring to?

Having sat in trains when the entire city goes dark (a common occurrence in Montreal in the 1980s) - it's fun, everything goes black, people scream, then the emergency lighting comes on, and the train limps forward to the next station, and you sit there trying to debate if you want to start walking, or waiting it out.

And then trading notes with everyone else, you find that everyone made it to the next station, except a couple of trains between stations far apart, that had to walk along the tracks.

My recollection from what I read 30+ years ago, is that there's supposed enough just battery power on a Metro car, to get to the next station.

I assume something similar happened in Toronto in 2003 - I've never experienced a wide-ranging failure since I came to Toronto in 2004.

 

[Duck]

I don't mean to be argumentative, but I don't think the Montreal Metro cars have batteries capable of supplying enough current to physically move the train. That's the first I've ever heard of that. Maybe to power emergency lighting, but that's it. I can't explain how your train could have moved otherwise, though. Maybe the yard has a genset that is capable of supplying just enough juice to supply a lower voltage/current to permit trains to move slowly with limited draw? Or is there really a huge bank of deep-cycle batteries under the floorboards that are always "topped up" and used to mitigate/smooth out any blips when the train runs over gaps in the current collector or for brief outages like you describe? @smallspy ?