TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[Admiral Beez]

Thanks. I wonder if these other projects have major components manufactured in Mexico. I imagine many city managers across Canada will be considering including a no Mexico or offshoring clause, unless there are significant savings.

 

[ottbike]

Thanks. I wonder if these other projects have major components manufactured in Mexico. I imagine many city managers across Canada will be considering including a no Mexico or offshoring clause, unless there are significant savings.

I'm not sure that a City would have the authority or grounds to make that sort of demand in a contract. I think the right idea would be to ensure there was a better late penalty/clause within the contract. It seems like Bombardier, for a long time until recently, pretty much got away with delaying the streetcar order over and over.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I'm not sure that a City would have the authority or grounds to make that sort of demand in a contract.

You can put whatever conditions you want in a contract; it's up to the other party to agree or not.

Bombardier got away with it because they know Toronto has no choice other than to use Bombardier for its future projects. Unlike other transit systems across Canada, the TTC seems somehow obliged to funnel all contracts to Bombardier, regardless of performance. I imagine this is because Queen's Park is fronting some money and they don't want to lose jobs and votes in the riding of Thunder Bay-Superior North.

 

[Duck]

Honestly I have no idea how Ottawa got away with going to Alstom for their rolling stock. Seems ridiculous to me that they didn't go to Bombardier - a very un-Canadian decision and it has very bad optics since it's Ottawa...

 

[DSC]

Honestly I have no idea how Ottawa got away with going to Alstom for their rolling stock. Seems ridiculous to me that they didn't go to Bombardier - a very un-Canadian decision and it has very bad optics since it's Ottawa...

Well, going to Bombardier for our streetcars has certainly worked out well for Toronto! I am all in favour of supporting Canadian industry but not at the expense of actually getting what you pay for when it's supposed to be delivered. Bombardier used to be the default Canadian option for this kind of contract but they clearly started to take this for-granted and now they are in the position where they will have to compete 'fairly' and do major work to regain customer confidence.

 

[Napoleon]

Thanks. I wonder if these other projects have major components manufactured in Mexico. I imagine many city managers across Canada will be considering including a no Mexico or offshoring clause, unless there are significant savings.

Not a trade expert, but I don't know exactly what's allowable for restrictions like that under NAFTA.

 

[dowlingm]

Honestly I have no idea how Ottawa got away with going to Alstom for their rolling stock. Seems ridiculous to me that they didn't go to Bombardier - a very un-Canadian decision and it has very bad optics since it's Ottawa...

They got away with it in part because Ottawa, like Edmonton, created a bidding structure where the construction and vehicles were done by the same consortium. I doubt it hurt that at the time, McGuinty (from Ottawa) was premier. In any event, given that Bombardier Transportation is headquartered in Berlin I wouldn't go so hard on the "Alstom is more foreign than Bombardier" thing. In fact, those two companies co-operate on Montreal's MPM-10 metro car order.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Honestly I have no idea how Ottawa got away with going to Alstom for their rolling stock. Seems ridiculous to me that they didn't go to Bombardier - a very un-Canadian decision and it has very bad optics since it's Ottawa...

I can guarantee you that Bombardier takes that thinking into account when they bid on and forecast their business, giving them wiggle room on meeting delivery and product commitments. In their mind(s) any light rail transit vehicle buy in Canada should by default go to them, it's the Canadian thing to do.

 

[gweed123]

They got away with it in part because Ottawa, like Edmonton, created a bidding structure where the construction and vehicles were done by the same consortium. I doubt it hurt that at the time, McGuinty (from Ottawa) was premier. In any event, given that Bombardier Transportation is headquartered in Berlin I wouldn't go so hard on the "Alstom is more foreign than Bombardier" thing. In fact, those two companies co-operate on Montreal's MPM-10 metro car order.

Part of it too is that it was stipulated that the vehicles must be assembled in Ottawa. That kinda fulfills the "Canadian content" part of it I would think. Bombardier in Thunder Bay basically does the same thing, as most of the actual manufacturing takes place in Mexico. At least Ottawa itself sees some jobs from it this way.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I know I've said it before, but it's a shame United Streetcar went bust. If they'd been able to hold out a few more years they would have perhaps benefited from the resurgence of trams and light rail transit. Not that their deliveries or rate of production was better or close to Bombardier, but added competition would be good for all North American buyers of such vehicles.

Here's a good tour of their plant http://koin.com/2014/12/02/streetcar-production-grinds-to-a-halt-for-now/

Here's one of USC's vehicles in Portland.

 

[Duck]

Those trains are a disaster and had even more problems than what Toronto is seeing. They just flat out didn't work. And they're a joke - they're a Slovakian model just "made in America". (And they're hideous)

 

[the lemur]

Part of it too is that it was stipulated that the vehicles must be assembled in Ottawa. That kinda fulfills the "Canadian content" part of it I would think. Bombardier in Thunder Bay basically does the same thing, as most of the actual manufacturing takes place in Mexico. At least Ottawa itself sees some jobs from it this way.

And it seems like the manufacturing in Mexico is the core of the problem. Melbourne has a Flexity Swift variant that was built locally with some parts shipped from Germany and there were none of the issues we're seeing here.

 

[ShonTron]

Those trains are a disaster and had even more problems than what Toronto is seeing. They just flat out didn't work. And they're a joke - they're a Slovakian model just "made in America". (And they're hideous)

Sounds like the Orion III buses!

 

[Duck]

Gold Coast's FLEXITY trains were also built in Europe.

 

[allabootmatt]

So, did 4416 arrive? Or not? Seems to be some confusion on this point...