RedRocket191
Senior Member
It was an inside joke. I'm sorry
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jks
Continuous Lurker
From the railway Gazette:
Toronto tram purchase enters final phase
Toronto tram.
26 Jan 2009
CANADA: Toronto Transit Commission completed negotiations on technical details and commercial arrangements with three potential suppliers of 204 low-floor trams by January 5. Alstom, Bombardier and Siemens were then given seven weeks to submit their final prices to TTC, which will recommend a winner to the nine-member commission. A final decision on the C$1·25bn contract is expected in April.
TTC rejected the only two bids submitted last year under its first request for proposals. On August 27 2008, TTC formally reopened the procurement process, using a multi-phase approach, and invited Alstom, Bombardier and Siemens to participate. The technical requirements of the original RFP were unchanged and all three companies said they could build a tram that meets those requirements.
Toronto tram purchase enters final phase
Toronto tram.
26 Jan 2009
CANADA: Toronto Transit Commission completed negotiations on technical details and commercial arrangements with three potential suppliers of 204 low-floor trams by January 5. Alstom, Bombardier and Siemens were then given seven weeks to submit their final prices to TTC, which will recommend a winner to the nine-member commission. A final decision on the C$1·25bn contract is expected in April.
TTC rejected the only two bids submitted last year under its first request for proposals. On August 27 2008, TTC formally reopened the procurement process, using a multi-phase approach, and invited Alstom, Bombardier and Siemens to participate. The technical requirements of the original RFP were unchanged and all three companies said they could build a tram that meets those requirements.
Automation Gallery
Superstar
Presto isn't to be fully rolled out by TTC until 2017 or so. Cancellation of the streetcar order has delayed the streetcar roll-out until 2010-2012 or so ... but I'm not sure this cancellation process is very good in the interim ...
Could always go back to the old system. Put conductors back on the vehicles, and use the current POP system. If you need proof of payment, you go straight to the conductor and pay them. The union would love it!
Lets wake up and remember that it is 2009 not 1989.
nfitz
Superstar
I was only kidding - but wow, did Toronto only get rid of conductors in 1989? I'd have thought it would have atleast been the 1940s or 1950s!
Ansem
Banned
I think Bombardier will win it.
I've seen thier models and they are very nice.
I've seen thier models and they are very nice.
TOareaFan
Superstar
Apologies in advance........
.......I don't ride streetcars all that often and I don't have the time/inclination to go back over the nearly 50 pages of this thread....so I may be asking a dumb question or, at least, one that has already been answered.
It strikes me that the street car fleet is what, 25 years old? (likely 30 by the time it is replaced?) but that the cars themselves (at least the few I have ridden) are not in horrible shape.
It also strikes me that a lot of places (York Region, Brampton, Mississauga, etc) are looking into light rail/streetcar type transit.
It also strikes me that we are in a recession and looking for ways to spend money to stimulate the economy/create jobs.
Does it make any sense for the province to buy (at fmv) the old streetcars from the TTC, have a company (Bormbardier?) refurb/rehab/upgrade the streetcars and then sell them to other municipalities that are considering streetcars.
I would imagine the economics don't work for the TTC (ie. the cost versus the number of years at their heavy usage in the city does not make economic sense) but it might work for a city/region tinkering with light rail/streetcars where the usage will not be so high so they might get more years out of the cars than the TTC would (thus swinging the economics more towards making sense).
The jobs created (presuming the province insisted the work be done in Ontario) could be significant, the cost savings might make streetcars more affordable for more areas and we would be creating more cities/regions that run streetcars similar to TTC standards so that, in the future, the new "Ontario Standard" streetcar is less of a custom job for the manufacturers (ie. they would be making cars to TTC specs but they would be useful to so many more customers).
I am sure this has been discussed or (more likely dismissed) but this thought struck me today as I took a fairly infrequent streetcar ride........"wow...instead of buses running along Queen St/Highway 7 to connect to the eventual subway in Vaughan...couldn't Brampton create a streetcar ROW and run TTC older 200 cars once they are replaced"
.......I don't ride streetcars all that often and I don't have the time/inclination to go back over the nearly 50 pages of this thread....so I may be asking a dumb question or, at least, one that has already been answered.
It strikes me that the street car fleet is what, 25 years old? (likely 30 by the time it is replaced?) but that the cars themselves (at least the few I have ridden) are not in horrible shape.
It also strikes me that a lot of places (York Region, Brampton, Mississauga, etc) are looking into light rail/streetcar type transit.
It also strikes me that we are in a recession and looking for ways to spend money to stimulate the economy/create jobs.
Does it make any sense for the province to buy (at fmv) the old streetcars from the TTC, have a company (Bormbardier?) refurb/rehab/upgrade the streetcars and then sell them to other municipalities that are considering streetcars.
I would imagine the economics don't work for the TTC (ie. the cost versus the number of years at their heavy usage in the city does not make economic sense) but it might work for a city/region tinkering with light rail/streetcars where the usage will not be so high so they might get more years out of the cars than the TTC would (thus swinging the economics more towards making sense).
The jobs created (presuming the province insisted the work be done in Ontario) could be significant, the cost savings might make streetcars more affordable for more areas and we would be creating more cities/regions that run streetcars similar to TTC standards so that, in the future, the new "Ontario Standard" streetcar is less of a custom job for the manufacturers (ie. they would be making cars to TTC specs but they would be useful to so many more customers).
I am sure this has been discussed or (more likely dismissed) but this thought struck me today as I took a fairly infrequent streetcar ride........"wow...instead of buses running along Queen St/Highway 7 to connect to the eventual subway in Vaughan...couldn't Brampton create a streetcar ROW and run TTC older 200 cars once they are replaced"
threnody
Active Member
Not a bad idea, but unfortunately the CLRVs are not accessible and that pretty much puts the kibosh on any plan to use them after the fleet has been replaced with the new streetcars
In other news, Steve Munro reports that the TTC is planning on running buses along Queen to supplement the 501.
TOareaFan
Superstar
Is it impossible to retrofit some accessible feature? If not, you are right, I can hardly see the province (or any other municipality) implementing non-accessible transit in todays world!
grey
Senior Member
Yes, it's impossible, or at least extremely impractical.
The cost of refitting the CLRV/ALRV fleet for accessibility is prohibitive. The biggest issue, I think, is that the floors are a few feet above the ground. It makes more sense to purchase a completely new fleet of low-floor vehicles than to upgrade these aging machines that are already at the end of their projected lifespans.
If you've ever been to the TTC Harvey Shop during Doors Open, you'll understand how expensive it is to just to maintain these beasts. Refit is out of the question.
The cost of refitting the CLRV/ALRV fleet for accessibility is prohibitive. The biggest issue, I think, is that the floors are a few feet above the ground. It makes more sense to purchase a completely new fleet of low-floor vehicles than to upgrade these aging machines that are already at the end of their projected lifespans.
If you've ever been to the TTC Harvey Shop during Doors Open, you'll understand how expensive it is to just to maintain these beasts. Refit is out of the question.
TOareaFan
Superstar
Thanks.
I am, however, going to take one more stab at this (I am a stubborn one).....since my idea would involve putting streetcar service where none exists, the service would not be burdened with existing infrastructure....so could you not just run these street cars and build the accessibility into the stops/stations? (this would be impossible wit the TTC because it would involved refitting a lot of stops/stations).
So my idea would be that at each stop there would be an area where people with additional accessibility needs stood.....one of the doors would line up with that area and, on the press of a button, a platform would spring/jut out and line up with the floor of the street car to create a ramp onto the streetcar!
It would add some time to that stop....but not every time (ie. most times that any transit vehicle stops, accessibility is not an issue....thankfully, people with mobility issues are a minority not a majority).
299 bloor call control.
Senior Member
Technically if they went with high-level platforms, they could refit the existing streetcars, and then purchase new high-floor LRVs like they use in Edmonton, Calgary, and San Diego, to name a few.
Personally, I like high platforms, since they have a greater presence - and when I say high, they're about 3/4 the height of subway platforms.
Personally, I like high platforms, since they have a greater presence - and when I say high, they're about 3/4 the height of subway platforms.
grey
Senior Member
The raised platform idea is possible, and it would probably be significantly cheaper to update all streetcar platforms across the city than to purchase a whole new fleet of streetcars.
The fact remains, however, that these vehicles are aging. The poor Harvey Shop would eventually become overwhelmed with the task of maintaining scores of aging and worn-down streetcars with all custom hand-made parts (this is what they do there). It's also expensive, because it requires more and more hours of labour the older the streetcars get, plus you're employing specifically skilled labour for the task.
The fact remains, however, that these vehicles are aging. The poor Harvey Shop would eventually become overwhelmed with the task of maintaining scores of aging and worn-down streetcars with all custom hand-made parts (this is what they do there). It's also expensive, because it requires more and more hours of labour the older the streetcars get, plus you're employing specifically skilled labour for the task.
TOareaFan
Superstar
At least I now know I am not a complete idiot.
I was not suggesting that the TTC should do this rather than the new fleet. With the amount of ridership/use the vehicles get I would imagine that new makes a ton of sense.
I was just thinking that rather than scrap these they could be refitted to introduce streetcar service into new areas as opposed to buses...then you could specifically design the stops/stations to match these vehicles.
golodhendil
Active Member
One option, if high-platform cars were to be used temporarily, is to do like Boston's Green Line:
The older trains are still high-platform, so some stations have been fitted with wooden ramps and portable lifts. The ramps should be relatively cheap and easy to implement, though the lifts aren't really that good and work really slow.
The older trains are still high-platform, so some stations have been fitted with wooden ramps and portable lifts. The ramps should be relatively cheap and easy to implement, though the lifts aren't really that good and work really slow.
Automation Gallery
Superstar
Why not just sell them to Mexico City or Cairo, it wouldnt be the first time that the TTC has done this.It would beat out having them sitting in the our scrap yards or even peoples backyards.