TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[nfitz]

They could add a low-floor middle section to the ALRV's?

You could do anything for the right $. I'm sure it could be done. But how much more would it cost than the $0.8 million a unit already being spent? With only $5 million for a new Flexity, it wouldn't take long before it isn't financially effective.

 

[the lemur]

They could add a low-floor middle section to the ALRV's?

It's been done.

There are some streetcars in operation in Boston with a similar configuration, known as '2 beds and a bath'.

 

[the lemur]

Looks like things aren't going well for Bombardier where the new Montreal subway cars are concerned either:

http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/bombardier-to-close-la-pocatiere-plant-for-six-months

 

[nfitz]

Well at least there they can blame Alstom, rather than at Thunder Bay where they blame Bombardier Mexico.

Though shutting down multiple production lines that are already behind schedule? Combined with massive layoffs on the aircraft side? At some point you have to wonder if they are approaching bankruptcy or something, and the rest is just a cover story.

 

[the lemur]

Well at least there they can blame Alstom, rather than at Thunder Bay where they blame Bombardier Mexico.

Though shutting down multiple production lines that are already behind schedule? Combined with massive layoffs on the aircraft side? At some point you have to wonder if they are approaching bankruptcy or something, and the rest is just a cover story.

Well, it turns out the software is supposed to come from one of Alstom's suppliers (according to http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/m...voitures-de-metro-azur-suspendue-six-mois.php) ... I'm starting to wonder why bidding wasn't opened to more companies for the new streetcars.

 

[nfitz]

... I'm starting to wonder why bidding wasn't opened to more companies for the new streetcars.

It was an open bid. Anyone could bid. And they did - don't forget the (technically non-compliant) TRAM Power Ltd bid! http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/tiny-british-firm-thinks-big/article4221053/

 

[the lemur]

It was an open bid. Anyone could bid. And they did - don't forget the (technically non-compliant) TRAM Power Ltd bid! http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/tiny-british-firm-thinks-big/article4221053/

Then I guess the question should be why didn't more suppliers bid?

 

[nfitz]

Then I guess the question should be why didn't more suppliers bid?

I suspect they all knew that they weren't going to be able to beat Bombardier's bid. If you know that your competitor will be cheaper than you in a fair and open competition, why waste the money?

 

[Platform 27]

Then I guess the question should be why didn't more suppliers bid?

I'll add to nfitz's point by noting there aren't a heck of a lot of suppliers out there, period. Because it was allegedly the largest single order of LRVs/Streetcars in the world, that probably narrowed the field further. The big three in the industry are Bombardier, Siemens and Alstom; and then there's a second tier of Kinki Sharyo, AnsaldoBreda, CAF and a few others that have picked up mid-size U.S. orders once in a while but have never done anything on the scale of 200+ vehicles with a huge option order. Then, mix in a 25% CanCon rule and you start to understand why Alstom and some of the second tier suppliers might have felt making a play was just too risky.

 

[nfitz]

I'll add to nfitz's point by noting there aren't a heck of a lot of suppliers out there, period. Because it was allegedly the largest single order of LRVs/Streetcars in the world, that probably narrowed the field further. The big three in the industry are Bombardier, Siemens and Alstom; and then there's a second tier of Kinki Sharyo, AnsaldoBreda, CAF and a few others that have picked up mid-size U.S. orders once in a while but have never done anything on the scale of 200+ vehicles with a huge option order. Then, mix in a 25% CanCon rule and you start to understand why Alstom and some of the second tier suppliers might have felt making a play was just too risky.

Also toss in a fairly tight schedule, the 100% low-floor requirement, and the requirement that the vehicle be able to run on the existing network with some very tight curves (the failure to meet that requirement by ALL the initial bidders is what lead to second RFP delaying the procurement for many months).

 

[BurlOak]

Looks like Bombardier is behind in delivering trains to Montreal. It's the sub-contractors fault!!

Supplier's delay forces Bombardier to halt métro car production

 

[DSC]

Looks like Bombardier is behind in delivering trains to Montreal. It's the sub-contractors fault!!

Supplier's delay forces Bombardier to halt métro car production

Yes, in Montreal they blame a sub-contractor - here it is poorly made parts from other Bombardier plants. If I werea shareholder I would be worried!

The delay is being blamed on Ansaldo STS, a subcontractor of Alstom, Bombardier’s consortium partner.

The subcontractor, which is a supplier of high technology for railway and urban transport, is behind on delivering what the consortium’s partners called a key component of the métro cars: an automatic train control system. Without it, the métro cars cannot operate, they said.

“Unfortunately, one of the external suppliers of the Bombardier-Alstom consortium has delayed delivery of the automatic train control system,” Alstom spokesperson Michelle Stein said. “And although the consortium has noted progress on the work of this supplier on the software, this progress is not sufficient to meet the previously announced delivery targets.”

 

[BurlOak]

Yes, in Montreal they blame a sub-contractor - here it is poorly made parts from other Bombardier plants. If I werea shareholder I would be worried!

Blaming Bombardier does make sense.

The Transit Authority signs a contract with Bombardier.

If anything goes wrong on the Contractors side - Bombardier is to blame for not making sure they have competent subs.
If anything goes wrong on the government side, the Transit authority is blamed for not adequately considering all their stakeholders.

 

[drum118]

Blaming Bombardier does make sense.

The Transit Authority signs a contract with Bombardier.

If anything goes wrong on the Contractors side - Bombardier is to blame for not making sure they have competent subs.
If anything goes wrong on the government side, the Transit authority is blamed for not adequately considering all their stakeholders.

Beside that, Blame Ontario, as they want sole suppliers for transit systems. Blame TTC/City of Toronto for getting in bed with sole suppliers when it cost taxpayer dearly in the pocket to support over price items.

Thunder Bay has change ownership a number of times and could be on their way out of the market considering they should been gone decades ago if it wasn't for sole supplier to TTC and GO.

Why should a bidder put in a bid costing millions of dollars knowing full well they will never get a contract in the first place??

Bombardier is using the same supplier that screw up the cars for Minneapolis and never learn a thing or 2 over it.

Siemens is now doing an order of 200+ cars for San Francisco for about $800+ million US. Order was issue in Sept 2014 for 175 cars with delivery of prototype by December 2016 and 23 by 2018, with an option for 85 cars at $648 million. It was increase to 215 a week ago at a cost of $858m in total.

If you are a stakeholder in Bombardier, you need to worry what your return will look like for the next 10 years.

Greed and trying to be number 1 is catching up to this company.

 

[robmausser]

Is 4405 in service yet?? Havent heard anything about it in a while.