TTC Fleet Procurement Strategy - 2022

[W. K. Lis]

The G series (Gloucester) cars were 17 m (55 ft 9+1⁄4 in) in length.


From link.

By 1960, the Toronto Transit Commission was preparing to expand its subway system to include the University line. The TTC wanted subway cars with a larger 75-foot (22.86 m) design and also wished to expand upon some of the experimental features in the existing G-series cars. The new design was pushed forward by general manager John G. Inglis.

The TTC performed testing at St. Clair and Union stations with a 75-foot test vehicle known as the Duncan Dragon. Built at the Duncan Shops by Len Bardsley and the D&D Equipment Company, the test car consisted of two trucks with three panels and was designed to test the size of train that could successfully navigate the tunnels. A steel girder with railings allowed workers to walk and ride the car during tests.

After specifications for the new cars were finalized, Alco's Montreal Locomotive Works was contracted to build the new cars, dubbed "M1". The cars are historically notable as the first subway cars produced in Canada and, at the time of their construction, the longest subway cars in the world. All subsequent TTC cars have followed the size and length specifications of the M series (though the Toronto Rocket deviates from the two-car married-pair formation) and influenced several other transit authorities to examine the use of longer cars.

 

[Deadpool X]

It's not 80 trains for Line 2. It's 63 trains for Line 2, and 17 trains for Line 1.

Dan

63 trains for line 2 alone seems too excessive.

It's a 26 km long line. Assuming a conservative average speed of 30 km/hr for trains, a round trip will take 52 minutes. Add a few minutes for turnaround and that makes it an hour for one full round trip. That means 1 train is good for 1 hour frequency (or 1 tph). If you want increase the frequency to 30 tph (2 min frequency), you would need 30 trains. Add 10 more trains for reserve and maintenance and you still get 40 trains. Trains needed for Scarborough extension are considered on top of this requirement.

 

[Deadpool X]

And why not build them longer to take up the whole platform.

Or build them slightly shorter so that we have 7 car trains occupying the entire platform.

 

[Bordercollie]

Or build them slightly shorter so that we have 7 car trains occupying the entire platform.

Again that messes up the block size that each train would occupy. Not to mention that you would have two lengths of cars to maintain, more wheels, more of everything.

At least it the middle car is the short one and it's in a fixed consist it makes things easier.

 

[T3G]

63 trains for line 2 alone seems too excessive.

It's a 26 km long line. Assuming a conservative average speed of 30 km/hr for trains, a round trip will take 52 minutes. Add a few minutes for turnaround and that makes it an hour for one full round trip. That means 1 train is good for 1 hour frequency (or 1 tph). If you want increase the frequency to 30 tph (2 min frequency), you would need 30 trains. Add 10 more trains for reserve and maintenance and you still get 40 trains. Trains needed for Scarborough extension are considered on top of this requirement.

The TTC presently utilizes 40 trains in regular service. 34 regularly scheduled consists and 6 gap trains.

From the most recent service summary: https://www.ttc.ca/transparency-and-accountability/transit-planning

 

[Northern Light]

63 trains for line 2 alone seems too excessive.

Perhaps so, but you got me wondering, what the existing fleet size is.........

Its 370 cars which works out to 61.66 trains.

It was 62 trains, one pair of cars was retired.

So the 'ask' is only + 1 vs the current fleet.

 

[Northern Light]

The TTC presently utilizes 40 trains in regular service. 34 regularly scheduled consists and 6 gap trains.

From the most recent service summary: https://www.ttc.ca/transparency-and-accountability/transit-planning

In light of my post above, and yours, I noted a spare ratio of just over 33% which certainly seems high.

So that immediately made me wonder, how many trains did the TTC run, during peak periods, on Line 2, pre-pandemic.

@Steve Munro is kind enough to have archived all the summaries for the last many years on his site.

So I looked up October 2019. There were 46 peak trains, 45 scheduled + 1 gap train

https://swanboatsteve.files.wordpress.com/2019/10/service-summary_2019-10-13.pdf

This achieved a service level of 2'21 headway.

The spare ratio is still quite high at just over 26%.

But in light of the above, the ask doesn't seem unreasonable.

 

[T3G]

The spare ratio comes, I believe, from discontinuing use of the T1 cars on the Sheppard line. The original plan when the TRs were ordered called for the T1s to continue running there, but was later modified, I guess to avoid having to run non-ATC equipped stock on the Yonge line, so a portion of the T1 fleet found itself without use. Not all of them are in passenger use either - the pair that was retired was actually two cars from two pairs that collided at Wilson yard back in 2008. Their 'widows' were paired together in 2013 and were converted to track geometry cars in 2018. I heard they planned to convert a total of 6 pairs, I'm not sure if anything has happened on that front.

 

[drum118]

That would change the turning radius and you would need to modify tunnels.

You don't have to do anything with the tunnels to have 500-525' trains. You change the train makeup by have 7 equal length cars where one car would overhang the platform. Since TTC is moving to one person train and then to none, only the driver end has to be at the end. I have seen where the driver is past the platform and looks at screens on the wall as to what is taking place on the platform.

TTC has talked about adding a 7th car that would be 50' long, but hasn't gone anywhere yet and it should be a must to deal with ridership.

If and when TTC goes to screen doors for platforms, the need of screens decease until there is no driver at all.

Maybe in 35 years, TTC can bring back the rail fan seat for the full width of the car once the trains become driverless and time to replace the existing ones. Will post shortly an video of an rail fan view I shot in Copenhagen this year from the airport to the tunnel in the opening.

 

[rbt]

63 trains for line 2 alone seems too excessive.

It's a 26 km long line. Assuming a conservative average speed of 30 km/hr for trains, a round trip will take 52 minutes. Add a few minutes for turnaround and that makes it an hour for one full round trip. That means 1 train is good for 1 hour frequency (or 1 tph). If you want increase the frequency to 30 tph (2 min frequency), you would need 30 trains. Add 10 more trains for reserve and maintenance and you still get 40 trains. Trains needed for Scarborough extension are considered on top of this requirement.

Line 2 in January 2020 (pre-pandemic) was scheduling 46 trains during AM rush. Spare capacity, extensions, and everything else will be in addition to that.

 

[nfitz]

63 trains for line 2 alone seems too excessive.

How? They have 61 train sets right now - which apparently isn't enough for the the extension to Sheppard, unless you short-turn half the trains at Kennedy.

Seems a bit light to me - especially if there's significant service increases.

 

[Deadpool X]

How? They have 61 train sets right now - which apparently isn't enough for the the extension to Sheppard, unless you short-turn half the trains at Kennedy.

Seems a bit light to me - especially if there's significant service increases.

My post that you quoted had an explanation for "how". I shared my reasons why the number is excessive. If TTC needs 61 trains for this line, then in my opinion resources are not being utilized efficiently.

 

[nfitz]

My post that you quoted had an explanation for "how". I shared my reasons why the number is excessive. If TTC needs 61 trains for this line, then in my opinion resources are not being utilized efficiently.

I was trying to be diplomatic so that you would check your math, where the error was clear,

You stated that:

It's a 26 km long line. Assuming a conservative average speed of 30 km/hr for trains, a round trip will take 52 minutes. Add a few minutes for turnaround and that makes it an hour for one full round trip

Your mistake is that you only included the travel time for one direction. It's 26.23 km in each direction. The average speed is about 30 km/hr! (actually 29.8 km/hr in AM peak pre-Covid - though currently they are running at 30.9 km/hr). So the one-way travel time is 52.8 minutes. There's actually no time scheduled for turn-around (which is odd).

So if it's about an hour for a one-way trip, it's about 2 hours for a round trip, not one (actually 1.75 hours).

So instead of your estimate of 40 trains, the number would be closer to 80 trains. As they are planning 80 trains for the whole thing, including the 7.5 km extension, then they are actually utilizing resource BETTER than one might thing!

Here's the last - pre-Covid schedule:

I remain concerned that 80 trainsets might not be enough if there's no plan to short-turn some trains at Kennedy, and that they can run better than every 141 seconds (25.5 trains an hour) once ATC is installed.

Simply put, station dwell time for passengers during rush brings the end-to-end speed well below 30km/h.

Deadpool is correct, that is the average speed - which includes station dwell time.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

63 trains for line 2 alone seems too excessive.

It's a 26 km long line. Assuming a conservative average speed of 30 km/hr for trains, a round trip will take 52 minutes. Add a few minutes for turnaround and that makes it an hour for one full round trip. That means 1 train is good for 1 hour frequency (or 1 tph). If you want increase the frequency to 30 tph (2 min frequency), you would need 30 trains. Add 10 more trains for reserve and maintenance and you still get 40 trains. Trains needed for Scarborough extension are considered on top of this requirement.

Munro broke down the numbers, pre pandemic line 2 operated 46 T1 trains plus a 20% spare rate plus 6 former line 4 trains makes 61 total trains.

According to google maps a one way trip end to end takes 49 minutes. Round trip would be 98 minutes (plus dwell time at the end of the line)., Running 46 trains is a 2 minute head way. Extending the line (Scarborough subway) or increasing headways (to say 90 seconds) requires additional trains

 

[smallspy]

I was trying to be diplomatic so that you would check your math, where the error was clear,

You stated that:


Your mistake is that you only included the travel time for one direction. It's 26.23 km in each direction. The average speed is about 30 km/hr! (actually 29.8 km/hr in AM peak pre-Covid - though currently they are running at 30.9 km/hr). So the one-way travel time is 52.8 minutes. There's actually no time scheduled for turn-around (which is odd).

So if it's about an hour for a one-way trip, it's about 2 hours for a round trip, not one (actually 1.75 hours).

So instead of your estimate of 40 trains, the number would be closer to 80 trains. As they are planning 80 trains for the whole thing, including the 7.5 km extension, then they are actually utilizing resource BETTER than one might thing!

Here's the last - pre-Covid schedule:
View attachment 434217

I remain concerned that 80 trainsets might not be enough if there's no plan to short-turn some trains at Kennedy, and that they can run better than every 141 seconds (25.5 trains an hour) once ATC is installed.

Deadpool is correct, that is the average speed - which includes station dwell time.

The current RFP quantities simply cover a 1-to-1 replacement of the current fleet, plus a couple of additional trains to cover the projected improvements to the existing line/service for the next 10-ish years.


There are a number of options available to be taken that cover the additional trains required for the Scarborough Extension, both for the limited service that the TTC has publicly claimed will be run (every second train) and for an enhanced service where every single train is run up to Sheppard.

Dan