TTC: Bloor Danforth Line 2 West Extension(s)

[T3G]

To make the bus terminal transfer easier one can board a westbound TTC bus and get off at Subway Crescent to get to the other terminal.

Maybe cool it with the melodramatic posting, okay? This is the 3rd or 4th post you've made on this topic.

I was just at Kipling station on Thursday. It was a 4 minute walk from the GO terminal to the TTC terminal. Annoying, perhaps, but not insurmountable. Getting from Kipling station to the stop at Acorn Avenue (opposite Subway Crescent) takes a few minutes itself. Now remember, there is no open access from the outside to the bus terminal; you have to go into the underground. According to Google Maps, it is a 7 minute walk from the stop at Dundas and Acorn to the loading platform; the only way boarding a westbound TTC bus would be competitive is if you have no sense of time. And even if we accept this premise, it immediately falls apart if you don't have a bus ready to go at the nearest platform, just waiting for you to board before it leaves.

 

[A Torontonian Now]

My preferred extension would be 3 stop: 1) East Mall; 2) Sherway; 3) Long Branch

I think Long Branch is a logical endpoint for a few reasons, mostly to do with network connectivity.

a) South Etobicoke is not served by rapid transit - this would connect it up to Etobicoke Centre and the subway network.​

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b) A station at Long Branch would make more efficient use of the existing streetcar track along Lake Shore, which would now have a greater bi-directionality to the ridership.​

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c) It is a good terminus for ridership from Mississauga as well, where a lot of new density is being added south of the QEW - some sort of BRT could ultimately be implemented along Lakeshore in Mississauga.​

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d) This would enable access to the Lakeshore line of the GO system. With 2-way all-day service, this connectivity to the most important GO line would enable new journeys and commutes.*​

*Just a single example, but I know someone in my neighbourhood near the Jane stop of the Bloor line who was offered a job a five-minute walk from Oakville GO, and turned it down because they didn't drive, and the commute required them to go downtown to Union Station in order to catch a GO train. This is a single anecdotal example, but I am convinced improving network connectivity is important with the potential to boost the productivity of the region.

 

[drum118]

My preferred extension would be 3 stop: 1) East Mall; 2) Sherway; 3) Long Branch

I think Long Branch is a logical endpoint for a few reasons, mostly to do with network connectivity.

a) South Etobicoke is not served by rapid transit - this would connect it up to Etobicoke Centre and the subway network.​

​

b) A station at Long Branch would make more efficient use of the existing streetcar track along Lake Shore, which would now have a greater bi-directionality to the ridership.​

​

c) It is a good terminus for ridership from Mississauga as well, where a lot of new density is being added south of the QEW - some sort of BRT could ultimately be implemented along Lakeshore in Mississauga.​

​

d) This would enable access to the Lakeshore line of the GO system. With 2-way all-day service, this connectivity to the most important GO line would enable new journeys and commutes.*​

*Just a single example, but I know someone in my neighbourhood near the Jane stop of the Bloor line who was offered a job a five-minute walk from Oakville GO, and turned it down because they didn't drive, and the commute required them to go downtown to Union Station in order to catch a GO train. This is a single anecdotal example, but I am convinced improving network connectivity is important with the potential to boost the productivity of the region.

So you are saying we should spend $2B to build the line to Long Branch that may carry 100-200 from Sherway to LB as well fork out $10,000 per day for operation cost??? With no stop between those 2 points, ridership will be the pits as well for the whole section if there is one.

If you are at Jane and Bloor, you only need to go to Royal York Station to get the bus to Mimico GO Station than going to Union from Dundas West GO Station. What the travel time for those trips from Jane and Bloor?? Did someone do their homework for travel time?

 

[M II A II R II K]

Or perhaps have those 3 stations on a new line that connects with Kipling and heads north into Etobicoke to the airport and beyond.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Or perhaps have those 3 stations on a new line that connects with Kipling and heads north into Etobicoke to the airport and beyond.

A Line 5 (Eglinton West LRT) and Line 6 (Finch West LRT) and UPX would be going to the Pearson Transit Hub by then. But that depends on the higher ups, and if they use public transit for other than photo ops.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Perhaps the Line 2 west extension could go to the airport as well.

 

[canucks83]

Or perhaps have those 3 stations on a new line that connects with Kipling and heads north into Etobicoke to the airport and beyond.

A Line with 3 st

 

[canucks83]

In my opinion it’s crazy the number of stops on Line 2, 5 and 6.
I believe on average it should be around 1KM per station (some station less, particularly downtown, others more in vinicity. Up to 2 or 2.5KM. I have never used line 2 but it seems painful with the number of stops. If Go Expansion a success, I believe line 2 should connect to Mississauga center because the Milton line will probably not have the same frequency as Lakeshore West.

 

[nfitz]

In my opinion it’s crazy the number of stops on Line 2, 5 and 6.
I believe on average it should be around 1KM per station (some station less, particularly downtown, others more in vinicity. Up to 2 or 2.5KM. I have never used line 2 but it seems painful with the number of stops. If Go Expansion a success, I believe line 2 should connect to Mississauga center because the Milton line will probably not have the same frequency as Lakeshore West.

Spacing on Bloor-Danforth seems fine to me. Perhaps Chester was extra - if they'd pushed Broadview station a bit further east, and Pape a bit further west, you could have had secondary exits near Playter and Carlaw only about 600 metres apart. But I wouldn't want any further apart. It's very convenient to use the subway for shopping along Bloor-Danforth. It's purpose was to replace the streetcar. If you start placing stations so far apart, instead of building local transit, you are building a system to get people into the city from the suburbs - and then have to have another bus or streetcar line along it as well for local use.

Though I'm curious what part of the city you are in, not to have ever used Line 2! Line 1 spacing is similar from Eglinton to Bloor. And from Bloor to St. Clair!

 

[canucks83]

I think I was mislead by the map. Looking at the map the stations look closer in Toronto, than Montreal, however, we have about the same average. I am from Montreal living on the orange line.

My concern more on the LRT Projects looking like glorified buses on Eglinton East and Finch West. I think it’s important to find the right balance to allow faster trips, but enough stops. Buses should be leverage for “locals stops.“

To get back to Line 2, if it’s extended, I would make sure at least 1 KM apart between the new stations. Similar to our green line in MTL, line 2 doesn’t seem very fast but it’s not as bad I first thought.

I am fascinated by Toronto and every project to make this city even more awesome. On transit, with the REM, Toronto will have some catch up to do to be Canada’s best transit city. I really hope for this line 2 expansion: Mississauga, North America biggest suburb, need to be finally connected To the subway.

 

[afransen]

In my opinion it’s crazy the number of stops on Line 2, 5 and 6.
I believe on average it should be around 1KM per station (some station less, particularly downtown, others more in vinicity. Up to 2 or 2.5KM. I have never used line 2 but it seems painful with the number of stops. If Go Expansion a success, I believe line 2 should connect to Mississauga center because the Milton line will probably not have the same frequency as Lakeshore West.

2 or 2.5 km might be pushing it. 1.5km is doable, but you'd have to retain surface transit (bus etc) for local service.

Given that stations are so catastrophically expensive in Toronto, that does support the conclusion that we should be stretching the distance between them,

 

[Northern Light]

I am fascinated by Toronto and every project to make this city even more awesome. On transit, with the REM, Toronto will have some catch up to do to be Canada’s best transit city. I really hope for this line 2 expansion: Mississauga, North America biggest suburb, need to be finally connected To the subway.

The TTC ruled out this particular version of the Line 2 extension the last time it look at expanding Line 2. Though, these things are always subject to revision. The last look-see was 20 years ago.

From: https://transittoronto.ca/archives/reports/rtes2002.pdf

In this option, the stations were appoximately~ 3km apart, 1.8km apart, 2.3km apart, 2.1km apart and 1.4km apart.

 

[canucks83]

2 or 2.5 km might be pushing it. 1.5km is doable, but you'd have to retain surface transit (bus etc) for local service.

Given that stations are so catastrophically expensive in Toronto, that does support the conclusion that we should be stretching the distance between them,

It’s up too! 1KM is best outside of downtown. The extension in Scarborough 7.8 KM for three new stations meaning 2.5 on avg. This is the max I would have between station. Yes buses should continues. Buses would always be best for local transportation or to bring you to nearest subway.

 

[canucks83]

The TTC ruled out this particular version of the Line 2 extension the last time it look at expanding Line 2. Though, these things are always subject to revision. The last look-see was 20 years ago.

View attachment 450583
From: https://transittoronto.ca/archives/reports/rtes2002.pdf

In this option, the stations were appoximately~ 3km apart, 1.8km apart, 2.3km apart, 2.1km apart and 1.4km apart.

I like that ! 4 or 5 stations

The TTC ruled out this particular version of the Line 2 extension the last time it look at expanding Line 2. Though, these things are always subject to revision. The last look-see was 20 years ago.

View attachment 450583
From: https://transittoronto.ca/archives/reports/rtes2002.pdf

In this option, the stations were appoximately~ 3km apart, 1.8km apart, 2.3km apart, 2.1km apart and 1.4km apart.

I think it would have been a perfect distance for that area for Line 2. Hopefully a revival of something like this option.

 

[nfitz]

My concern more on the LRT Projects looking like glorified buses on Eglinton East and Finch West. I think it’s important to find the right balance to allow faster trips, but enough stops. Buses should be leverage for “locals stops.“

There's 3 or 4 stops that seem unnecessary on each. But remember it's supposed to replace buses for the most part.

To get back to Line 2, if it’s extended, I would make sure at least 1 KM apart between the new stations.

Look at a to-scale map. The spacing at the ends of the line is already far greater than you usually see in Montreal. Victoria Park to Warden is well over 2 km. Warden to Kennedy is about 2.7 km! (I think there should have been a station half-way at Birchmount).

Then for the three new stations that are under construction, the distances are about 3.6 km to the new Lawrence East station at McCowan (way too far - should have been one at 1.5 km near where Brimley/Eglinton/McCowan Road meet). Then 2.3 km to Scarborough Centre, and finally 1.6 km to Sheppard West.

To compare to the end of Orange line along Decarie, that would be like putting the final station at Cote-Vertu, the second station at the Met, between du College and de la Savanne. The third station at Plamondon (skipping Namur), and the fourth station at Sherbrooke (skipping Cote Ste-Catherine, Snowdown, and Villa Maria)! So what is a 3-station extension in Toronto, takes almost 8 stations in Montreal. The two stations (Kennedy and Warden) would add an extra 4.7 km, so it's like Lucien-l'Allier to Cote Vertu being only 5 stations compared to 12! And that includes the 1.4 km from Place St-Henri to Vendome - which I believe is the longest distance between any two Metro stations on the island.

On transit, with the REM, Toronto will have some catch up to do to be Canada’s best transit city.

As far as I know, the only $billion plus expansion projects currently underway in Montreal are the 26-station (67 km) REM, and the 5-station/5-km Blue Line extension (that was shown on the Metro map on trains as coming soon when I lived there 40-years ago!).

Off-hand, there are seven $1-billion+ projects just for subway/LRT under construction in Toronto by the province. These include:

• 7.5-km Line 2 Scarborough subway extension (3 stations)
• 15.6-km Ontario Line (future Line 3?) subway (15 stations)
• 19-km Eglinton (Line 5), of which about 10 km is subway and 9 km is LRT (13 subway stations, 10 surface stops, and 2 underground LRT stations)
• 10-km Finch West (Line 6) LRT (16 stops and 2 underground stations)
• 9-km Eglinton West (Line 5 extension), which all subway (7 stations)
• 7.5-km Yonge North (Line 1 extension) subway extension (4, 5, or 6 stations) (not really under construction yet, but early works are underway, and tendering is going)
• 18-km Hurontario LRT (19 stops)

In the recent budget the province also committed to:

• 7-km Sheppard (Line 4 extension) subway to Sheppard West (6 to 9 stations)
• 4-km Eglinton West (Line 5 extension) subway to Pearson (3 or 4 stations) (well, mostly elevated).

That's almost 100 km of new rapid transit - 85 km under construction. That seems far more significant than the REM and Blue Line.

But don't forget the city-lead projects:

• new Line 2 platform and station rebuild at Bloor-Yonge has started and will be over $1-billion.
• proposed Waterfront East/West streetcar/LRT work ... the new station at Union and the rest of the lines will be over $1-billion. (though who knows how and where Waterfront West will go)
• proposed 19-km Eglinton East LRT (city is calling Line 7 currently) - 22 stops, with possible 3.4 km second phase to connect to Sheppard West station

But - most significantly - the REM spacing is much closer to Commuter Rail than metro. Toronto is in the middle of a huge $14 billion (or likely much more) conversion of 5 of the commuter lines, to RER-like service (all-day, every 15-minutes or better). Under construction are:

• Kitchener line - 30 km and 5 stations to Bramalea, plus new stations at King/Liberty and Mount Dennis.
• Lakeshore West line - 51 km and 9 stations to Burlington (and at least hourly another 20 km to Confederation in Hamilton).
• Lakeshore East - 50 km and and 9 stations to Oshawa, plus a new station at East Harbour, plus a less frequent 20-km extension with 4 new stations to Bowmanville
• Stouffville line - 30 km and 5 stations to Unionville - plus a new station at Finch
• Barrie line - 66km and 9 stations to Bradford - plus 3 new stations (Spadina, Bloor/Lansdowne, and Caledonia).

Oddly, the federal government promised funding to convert a sixth commuter line, which the province has yet to commit to:

• Milton line - 50 km and 7 stations to Milton

Even without Milton that's over 220 km of frequent transit on GO and about 420 more km with less frequent service.

But there's also many other projects in the planning stage. Look at the Regional Transportation Plan - https://www.ontario.ca/page/connecting-ggh-transportation-plan-greater-golden-horseshoe

The latest version lists dozens more projects (many are BRT), but also including:

• 16.5-km Jane (city is calling Line 8) LRT with over 25 stops. Some south of Eglinton will have to be subway
• 6-km Finch West extension (Line 6) east to Yonge
• 8-km Finch West extension (Line 6) west to Pearson
• 3-km Hurontario LRT extension to Brampton
• 65-km Ontario Line (future Line 3) extensions to 407, Pearson, and Kipling (which I have a hard time believing to be honest)

Perhaps it's Montreal that will have some catch up to do. Though the long-promised 2-km two-station Orange Line extension to Bois-Franc would be a good start. And the even longer-promised 7-km five(?) station Blue line extension to LaSalle.