TTC: Automatic Train Control and Subway Platform Screen Doors

[EnviroTO]

^ True, in Japan on the regular JR trains in the larger stations they paint where people should stand with different markings to account for different types of trains arriving at the same platform. They manage to stop the train in the right spot seemingly without ATO at all (considering the age of the trains and where they are going).

 

[nfitz]

Then all you need is to put a marker where the doors will be.

Isn't really that necessary once it's been running for a while. Montreal has been using automatic train control since the mid-1970s, and by the early 1980s you could tell exactly where the door would be on the platform, simply from the wear/tear on the floor next the tracks.

 

[AKS]

Isn't really that necessary once it's been running for a while. Montreal has been using automatic train control since the mid-1970s, and by the early 1980s you could tell exactly where the door would be on the platform, simply from the wear/tear on the floor next the tracks.

That would mean we're about 40 years behind since we don't have auto train control and we don't have the experience of those Montreal residents who have been trained where to stand for the past 40 years.

 

[muller877]

London Tube Automation

I've been a long time reader, first time poster.

Bombardier is installing train automation on 4 lines in London. This includes signal improvements as well as adding electronics to the trains. This will increase frequency of trains by 25%.

http://www.rail.co/2011/06/14/new-signalling-on-the-tube-to-increase-capacity-on-40-of-network/

The four lines are some of the oldest in the Tube and total 185 km in length (some run on the same rails so if I remove the Circle line...158km of track. Total cost is GBP350M (C$580M). These Tube lines have a lot of connections with other lines and all trains do not go from Point A to B. Thus more complicated than the Toronto automation requirements.

So, Toronto, given 70 km to track $260M to upgrade ALL OF THE SUBWAY. I would assume the cost could be lower given that 1/2 of our subway cars will already have the electronics included and less complexity in our layout.

To increase capacity by 25%, lower ongoing costs (layoffs) and the ability to add a suicide barrier (at least in the beginning at Bloor-Yonge Stn to speed boarding), isn't this a no-brianer (or am I missing a cost that TTC would have in excess of the Tube)? And if the TTC just wanted to do the Yonge line, I'm guessing the cost would be less than $150M.

The article also states that Madrid did a recent upgrade as well. Would be interested in the per km cost of this one.

 

[Mapleson]

Bombardier is installing train automation on 4 lines in London. This includes signal improvements as well as adding electronics to the trains. This will increase frequency of trains by 25%.

The four lines are some of the oldest in the Tube and total 185 km in length (some run on the same rails so if I remove the Circle line...158km of track. Total cost is GBP350M (C$580M). These Tube lines have a lot of connections with other lines and all trains do not go from Point A to B. Thus more complicated than the Toronto automation requirements.

So, Toronto, given 70 km to track $260M to upgrade ALL OF THE SUBWAY. I would assume the cost could be lower given that 1/2 of our subway cars will already have the electronics included and less complexity in our layout.

To increase capacity by 25%, lower ongoing costs (layoffs) and the ability to add a suicide barrier (at least in the beginning at Bloor-Yonge Stn to speed boarding), isn't this a no-brianer (or am I missing a cost that TTC would have in excess of the Tube)? And if the TTC just wanted to do the Yonge line, I'm guessing the cost would be less than $150M.

The article also states that Madrid did a recent upgrade as well. Would be interested in the per km cost of this one.

That cost is just track works and closures. They are getting 191 new trains outside that procurement order. The TTC is paying about $250,000 per train control set for the Toronto Rockets. They are spending a billion on the 70 Rockets ($15 million per train).

 

[W. K. Lis]

A situation where platform screen doors would have been of good use. From this link where you can view the video.

Subway stops inches from woman on tracks

TTC employees are being credited with saving the life of a woman after she fell off the platform at Dundas West Station just as a train was pulling in.

The incident happened Wednesday afternoon when the driver of the train saw the woman on the tracks and killed the electricity, bringing the train to a stop about five feet from the woman.

Horrified commuters looked on as the incident unfolded.

"The train was coming and the train was honking," said witness Jason Feliz. "Everybody was screaming really loud and trying to get her to get out of there, but she didn't know where she was."

One witness pulled out his cell phone camera and captured an image of the woman crouched on the tracks, just in front of a stopped train car.

"Stay there, don't move from there," a TTC ticket taker yelled at the woman.

The third rail of the tracks still contained an electric charge, which could be enough to electrocute and kill a person if it is touched.

Employees were able to turn off the power. The train driver jumped out of his car and pulled the woman to safety.

TTC spokesperson Brad Ross viewed the video Thursday, saying the TTC employees did everything they should have in that situation.

"There was no warning," Ross said. "She fell accidentally and we're just glad she's OK."

Investigators said they don't know how the woman fell.

She wasn't injured during the incident and declined a trip to the hospital.

The project for getting platform screen doors is on hold. Guess its "gravy" even if it could have prevented any such situation. It was to have started in 2011.

I guess keeping platform screen doors out of the Subway will help to "decrease the surplus population" as Ebenezer Scrooge would say in some obscure Charles Dickens' literature.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

A Toronto Star article from today




One issue I can see with installing platform doors is plans to add a seventh shorter car to trains to increase capasity. The platform doors might not be able to line up properly if the trains are extended after the platform doors are installed.

Just design the doors to work with 7 car trains incase the trains ever get extended.

 

[Jonny5]

The project for getting platform screen doors is on hold. Guess its "gravy" even if it could have prevented any such situation. It was to have started in 2011.

Is it not impossible to implement without ATC, and didn't the TTC say that would cost a billion and at a minimum be is 5 years away?

And wansn't there a UofT study that showed the prevention effect from applying suicide barriers at some stations, but not all, would not actually prevent any suicides based on how the Bloor Viaduct Luminous Vail diverted some suicides but the overwhelming majority just went to Millwood?

If my memory is correct about all the above, I would continue to consider platform doors worthless and the biggest waste of funds ever conceived by the TTC.

 

[sixrings]

A situation where platform screen doors would have been of good use. From this link where you can view the video.



The project for getting platform screen doors is on hold. Guess its "gravy" even if it could have prevented any such situation. It was to have started in 2011.

I guess keeping platform screen doors out of the Subway will help to "decrease the surplus population" as Ebenezer Scrooge would say in some obscure Charles Dickens' literature.

How much do these costs per station? How many stations do we have? How much does it cost to build per km subway? How much does it cost per km lrt.

 

[rbt]

How much do these costs per station? How many stations do we have?

The last estimate I read was around $1B. I believe that included a substantial overhaul of the smoke ventillation systems (like Finch got: $6.5M per station) due to the doors changing the airflow patterns, asbestos removal at some stations, and signal system on Bloor/Danforth.

Those stations with asbestos did not get the security camera upgrades or video screens for the same reason.

The fire changes will occur eventually anyway and are several hundred million system wide.

The Bloor/Danforth signal system is in the $500M range.

I'm not certain what the doors would cost if all of the prerequisite projects were already completed. Likely about $100M system wide. It will be interesting to see if the rebuilt SRT and Eglinton tunnel stations receive platform edge doors.

 

[sixrings]

The last estimate I read was around $1B. I believe that included a substantial overhaul of the smoke ventillation systems (like Finch got: $6.5M per station) due to the doors changing the airflow patterns, asbestos removal at some stations, and signal system on Bloor/Danforth.

Those stations with asbestos did not get the security camera upgrades or video screens for the same reason.

The fire changes will occur eventually anyway and are several hundred million system wide.

The Bloor/Danforth signal system is in the $500M range.

I'm not certain what the doors would cost if all of the prerequisite projects were already completed. Likely about $100M system wide. It will be interesting to see if the rebuilt SRT and Eglinton tunnel stations receive platform edge doors.

I might sound cold hearted been the if it costs the same per station as a km of subway or lrt I would take transit expansion over transit protection.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I might sound cold hearted been the if it costs the same per station as a km of subway or lrt I would take transit expansion over transit protection.

So its agreed: transit protection in the form of platform screen doors is "gravy"

 

[sixrings]

So its agreed: transit protection in the form of platform screen doors is "gravy"

dont make it sound like im a rob ford guy.... It wouldnt be gravy if we had a system that was constantly upgraded and wasnt 20 years behind.... but with the need of GO improvements in service frequencys and additional spacing, the need for a DRL, and the need to complete the finch lrt, the eglinton to pearson lrt and to make a don mills a lrt line THE PLATFORM SCREEN doors does appear like "GRAVY" on a priority list. We are talking tolls and all sorts of other taxes just to fund these lines because we dont have money. And on top of everything now some people (I dont know if you honestly are) are advocating for SCREEN DOORS.

 

[rbt]

I might sound cold hearted been the if it costs the same per station as a km of subway or lrt I would take transit expansion over transit protection.

Agreed. I expect we will add them to the 5 or so stations with significant crowding issues and no place else.

 

[k10ery]

I might sound cold hearted been the if it costs the same per station as a km of subway or lrt I would take transit expansion over transit protection.

Based on rbt's number it costs $15-20 million per station and a kilometre of subway costs $350-400 million, i.e. a lot more. This should not be surprising - 1 km of subway includes at least one new subway station which is going to be more expensive than retrofitting an existing one.