Transit Fantasy Maps

[Bureaucromancer]

The thing to remember about Breslau is that the development permissions and possibilities for greenbelt expansion are all suggestive that future development will push the urban boundaries of Kitchener and Guelph together. A station for Victoria is better now, but Breslau better supports connectivity to everything east of the river, and that's where growth is likely to be. Putting a good iXPress service on Victoria and running that frequently between downtown, Kitchener GO and on to Breslau would be better for transit use than a single GO station somewhere along Victoria imo

 

[Streety McCarface]

The thing to remember about Breslau is that the development permissions and possibilities for greenbelt expansion are all suggestive that future development will push the urban boundaries of Kitchener and Guelph together. A station for Victoria is better now, but Breslau better supports connectivity to everything east of the river, and that's where growth is likely to be. Putting a good iXPress service on Victoria and running that frequently between downtown, Kitchener GO and on to Breslau would be better for transit use than a single GO station somewhere along Victoria imo

Maybe in the future, but not currently. one could run many significant buses (12, 8, 204, 201) to the westmount/Victoria street, potentially seeing a lot of traffic. These don't have to be grandiose stations.

 

[44 North]

Since Victoria should theoretically serve as a transit trunk, but likely doesn't on account of narrow corridor constraints, hard not to imagine the possibilities of using the rail corridor. The rail ROW seems to be large enough for two more tracks. But I'd imagine in a best case Euro-style scenario maybe a second dedicated single track for an intra-city service with double the number of stations as shown above. So I guess a single track with service every 15mins using a single unit LRV or diesel O-train style vehicle. Would obviously have to be coordinated and have passing tracks. Then one day push it west and east to New Hamburg and Guelph (half hourly or hourly). KW's done the heavy lifting solving N-S travel, this would tackle E-W.

 

[DKsan]

The thing to remember about Breslau is that the development permissions and possibilities for greenbelt expansion are all suggestive that future development will push the urban boundaries of Kitchener and Guelph together. A station for Victoria is better now, but Breslau better supports connectivity to everything east of the river, and that's where growth is likely to be. Putting a good iXPress service on Victoria and running that frequently between downtown, Kitchener GO and on to Breslau would be better for transit use than a single GO station somewhere along Victoria imo

I don't know about Guelph, but the Region of Waterloo and its municipalities have a stronger anti-sprawl mandate than most of the GTHA (Bill 66 is being rejected like dominos over there). Aside from some development in Breslau, Kitchener (though more technically Woolwich county) won't be meeting Guelph anytime soon.

 

[jaybe]

I was looking at Kitchener GO and was thinking what would adequately serve a city like Kitchener? I decided 4 stations would do.

Ideally, with fare-by-distance so that commuting from Kitchener West to Kitchener Centre would be like $3 bucks or something.

View attachment 170725

Is 4 stations excessive in the long-run? Discuss away.

4 stations does seem excessive considering the area. GO stations on the Lakeshore corridor are roughly 5km apart. The distance from Kitchener West to Grand River GO is about 11km. Considering the population, I'd suggest 3 stations would be enough.

There was discussion of a GO Stop just north of the K-W airport on the London/K-W rail thread. Moving the proposed Grand River station 1.5km to the east near Fountain Road (RR #17) may be a good option.

 

[TOareaFan]

I was looking at Kitchener GO and was thinking what would adequately serve a city like Kitchener? I decided 4 stations would do.

Ideally, with fare-by-distance so that commuting from Kitchener West to Kitchener Centre would be like $3 bucks or something.

View attachment 170725

Is 4 stations excessive in the long-run? Discuss away.

Seeking a $3 fare might be compared to the $6.70 ($5.95 with Presto) that GO charges to travel from Mount Pleasant to Bramalea.

I know there is a movement in Toronto to try and get GO fares in that city to replicate/approximate local transit fares......I guess if that was done system wide (ie. GO travel that starts and stops inside the same municipality are the same as a local fare) that would produce the kind of fares you suggest but the current fare structure would/should not.

 

[timio]

I don't think Grand River Go would be used to nearly the same extent as the other three, along with no reasonable location for station and parking in that area. Breslau is the better choice for that end of town, with the space for a park and ride.

No need for (much) parking at Westmount, as it's in a dense area compared to the other stations.

 

[Streety McCarface]

I don't think Grand River Go would be used to nearly the same extent as the other three, along with no reasonable location for station and parking in that area. Breslau is the better choice for that end of town, with the space for a park and ride.

No need for (much) parking at Westmount, as it's in a dense area compared to the other stations.

I'd say it would be fairly well used if a DMU/Light rail Electrified service between Kitchener and Guelph was created. It could run somewhat like the Ottawa Trillium line or UPX and serve more of a local transit market. There are already plenty of people taking GO between Kitchener and Guelph, why not expand that?

Clear stops are stop request, full images are guaranteed stops. It kind of makes me think of the Norristown High Speed Line in Philadelphia.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

4 stations does seem excessive considering the area. GO stations on the Lakeshore corridor are roughly 5km apart. The distance from Kitchener West to Grand River GO is about 11km. Considering the population, I'd suggest 3 stations would be enough.

It is interesting discussion point because the Lakeshore corridor has a lot of passengers passing through areas. It is akin to Brampton on the Kitchener corridor, where people from Kitchener, Guelph, Georgetown etc. must pass through Brampton. Adding stops in Brampton introduces a delay for all those passengers further down the line.

Kitchener is at the "end" of a line. Introducing closer stop-spacing does not negatively impact the commutes of people from Guelph, Georgetown, Brampton, etc. This means that we can look at providing maximum coverage in Kitchener (4 stations), without feeling bad of adding the extra dwell time to other commuters.

That is my 2 cents on this specific question.

There was discussion of a GO Stop just north of the K-W airport on the London/K-W rail thread. Moving the proposed Grand River station 1.5km to the east near Fountain Road (RR #17) may be a good option.

I don't think Grand River Go would be used to nearly the same extent as the other three, along with no reasonable location for station and parking in that area. Breslau is the better choice for that end of town, with the space for a park and ride.

No need for (much) parking at Westmount, as it's in a dense area compared to the other stations.

I'm not very familiar with the urban geography of Kitchener as my experience with that city has been "as a visitor" so maybe I am missing something. I understand that Breslau is slated to receive development pressure, but that Grand River GO stop is positioned for present coverage of the built-up area.

I made a quick map below demonstrating what I would imagine the catchment area for Grand River GO looking like (I omitted Breslau, but it is also within the catchment area). Additionally, I mapped out in blue the only two points of access between the catchment area in yellow and the east bank of the Grand River, Victoria St N and Fairway Rd N. Any station located in Breslau would require those in the catchment area depicted in yellow to cross the Grand River at one of the two points.

But, I concede that maybe I have a poor understanding of the lay-of-the-land here.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Honestly I suspect that there's a very good chance of the north main line as a whole getting something like 4 levels of stopping patterns eventually, with the most local service looking something like the above, VIA or similar operating an quasi high speed true express with a pattern something like Union - Pearson - (maybe Brampton) - Guelph - Kitchener - London, and both an all day semi stopping (along the lines of current GO locals) and semi express (albeit probably peak only). Which is to say that the real question to me is how to phase things more than whether these locations are a good idea overall.

Edit: WislaHD's post went up while I was typing, but to me it really emphasizes the need for an Ottawa St bridge and a Breslau Station bus terminal.

My overall opinion of Breslau vs Westmount given today's service is the same as Timio's though. Even if we aren't aiming for a park and ride focused station, Breslau has a very good location for orienting GRT service around, while Westmount would have decent connections, butnot do anything for pulling bus service east of the river or linking the airport and would make for less direct transit connection from the southern extent of WislaHD's catchment area than Breslau with bus extensions.

 

[micheal_can]

It is interesting discussion point because the Lakeshore corridor has a lot of passengers passing through areas. It is akin to Brampton on the Kitchener corridor, where people from Kitchener, Guelph, Georgetown etc. must pass through Brampton. Adding stops in Brampton introduces a delay for all those passengers further down the line.

Kitchener is at the "end" of a line. Introducing closer stop-spacing does not negatively impact the commutes of people from Guelph, Georgetown, Brampton, etc. This means that we can look at providing maximum coverage in Kitchener (4 stations), without feeling bad of adding the extra dwell time to other commuters.

That is my 2 cents on this specific question.

It used to be called the Georgetown Line. Then it was called the Guelph Line. Then it went back to the Georgetown Line. Then Finally got to be called the Kitchener line. It one day might be called the London Line. Those extra stops will no longer be at the end of the line.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

It used to be called the Georgetown Line. Then it was called the Guelph Line. Then it went back to the Georgetown Line. Then Finally got to be called the Kitchener line. It one day might be called the London Line. Those extra stops will no longer be at the end of the line.

Eh. I see your point, but what population centres do you see beyond Kitchener?

Even if we extended the train to Baden-New Hamburg or even to Stratford, I am pretty sure those commuters won't mind the extra stops. If anything, they probably are working in Kitchener and would appreciate the extra stop coverage.

 

[micheal_can]

Eh. I see your point, but what population centres do you see beyond Kitchener?

Even if we extended the train to Baden-New Hamburg or even to Stratford, I am pretty sure those commuters won't mind the extra stops. If anything, they probably are working in Kitchener and would appreciate the extra stop coverage.

They now have a GO train to Niagara Falls. I could see this line terminating in London.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

They now have a GO train to Niagara Falls. I could see this line terminating in London.

Never mind "could see", I'd call it the likely outcome if anything like HSR or HFR happens, or for that matter if Via has a bout of common sense and redirects Sarnia trains along the lake.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

HSR or HFR is not having local stops along its corridor. At that point, you are looking at multiple services along the same corridor.