Transit Fantasy Maps

[ehlow]

Thx for the info. And sorry for bringing it up again. Perhaps I was confusing things with how it was to be operated with the SRT rebuild. I recall their being a hubbub a few years back when there were claims the entire Crosstown and SLRT wouldn’t be able to run as a continuous line from Black Creek to Markham Rd. I’m not even sure if that’s correct, or if I’m making it up. Too many plans, too many changes, hard to find reliable info.

But if it was true; I get that the headways would have to be different for each section, and that certain trains would have to turn back at Laird or Kennedy. But I don’t see why the Crosstown and SLRT couldn’t have been run as one route. Even if 1 /4 of the trains did the complete trip, it probably would’ve been popular to some.

No problem. You're right, they planned to run the Scarborough LRT and Eglinton LRT as separate lines originally (pre-2010). There was also the confusingly named "Scarborough Malvern LRT" which would've continued along Eglinton east of Kennedy as yet another separate line.

 

[BurlOak]

No problem. You're right, they planned to run the Scarborough LRT and Eglinton LRT as separate lines originally (pre-2010). There was also the confusingly named "Scarborough Malvern LRT" which would've continued along Eglinton east of Kennedy as yet another separate line.

What is the current status?

I think the line is continuous from Mount Dennis to Kennedy, with short turns probably at Laird.
The SLRT, when it was last planned, would end at Kennedy.
The SMLRT would end at Kennedy.

I think there was a connection between the Eglinton line and the SLRT for service but not revenue service.
I think there was no connection between Eglinton and SMLRT.

Is this correct?

 

[CDL.TO]

For a year or so, during the height of Rob Ford madness, the whole Eglinton line was going to be underground and was going to operate along with the Scarborough LRT as a single line from Weston to McCowan.

As long as Eglinton is partially at-grade, it's not possible to operate it as a single line with the Scarborough LRT as the level of demand would be too mismatched between the two sections and the danger of disruptions on the at-grade section spilling over to the high-demand Scarborough LRT section would be too great.

 

[Ozman]

What is the current status?

I think the line is continuous from Mount Dennis to Kennedy, with short turns probably at Laird.
The SLRT, when it was last planned, would end at Kennedy.
The SMLRT would end at Kennedy.

I think there was a connection between the Eglinton line and the SLRT for service but not revenue service.
I think there was no connection between Eglinton and SMLRT.

Is this correct?

Yes I believe you are correct.

As is CDL.TO in the comment after your above comment.

 

[gweed123]

Thanks. And I’m very much looking forward to your map. The way you organized different levels of service for your previous GO REX maps is definitely a proper way of going about things. And if your numbering/lettering is anything like those, it should be pretty solid. Also that INAT standard you told me about months ago would be good to incorporate for our system; clean, bright, smooth flowing...it’s what I’d imagine for the future. And a big improvement to the current TTC standard (but TBH I don’t think TTC even has a “standard”).

I’m definitely eager to see how you go about placing the streetcar system, and labeling Crosstown East, FWLRT, and SELRT. Last night I made a brief attempt. But when I saw how many stops there’d be, and that it would involve me having to move lines (which meant moving other lines, and stations) – I dropped the whole thing. I think I was more interested in what shade of red the DRL should be.

Thanks! And yeah, I've definitely adopted many of the design items included in the INAT standard, even if I'm not following it to the letter. The overall design just makes things so much more legible.

The only place where I had some trouble placing the stops is on the Sheppard East LRT, east of McCowan. I had to cram them in there due to the physical space of the map, but I think I made it work. I didn't even attempt to put in streetcar stops, I just show that the line is there.

The other map that I'm going to create is a redesigned line map to go above the doors (where the current system map is now). It'll show just that line, but a lot more info, including all of the connecting surface routes at that station, as well as a list off to the side of what all of them are. I've had it happen quite a few times where I've been going somewhere new that involved a connecting surface route, and I had to write the route number down and the station I needed to get off at so that I didn't forget it. A quick reminder or confirmation on the subway line map of "oh yeah, this bus route connects at this station" I think would be very helpful for a lot of people.

 

[P23]

Thanks! And yeah, I've definitely adopted many of the design items included in the INAT standard, even if I'm not following it to the letter. The overall design just makes things so much more legible.

The only place where I had some trouble placing the stops is on the Sheppard East LRT, east of McCowan. I had to cram them in there due to the physical space of the map, but I think I made it work. I didn't even attempt to put in streetcar stops, I just show that the line is there.

The other map that I'm going to create is a redesigned line map to go above the doors (where the current system map is now). It'll show just that line, but a lot more info, including all of the connecting surface routes at that station, as well as a list off to the side of what all of them are. I've had it happen quite a few times where I've been going somewhere new that involved a connecting surface route, and I had to write the route number down and the station I needed to get off at so that I didn't forget it. A quick reminder or confirmation on the subway line map of "oh yeah, this bus route connects at this station" I think would be very helpful for a lot of people.

Don't use lists, I would put the route numbers directly beside the stations on the diagram. People hate using lists, and of course the TTC loves them. If you look at the new shelter maps they have a massive list of bus routes and all it has is their number and name, completely useless.

 

[gweed123]

Don't use lists, I would put the route numbers directly beside the stations on the diagram. People hate using lists, and of course the TTC loves them. If you look at the new shelter maps they have a massive list of bus routes and all it has is their number and name, completely useless.

What I was going to do is have the route numbers right beside the station (either station name on top and connections underneath, or vice versa), but then on the side a list that has both the route number and route name, since a lot of people don't know the route number but do know the route name (ex: 26 Dupont).

 

[P23]

What I was going to do is have the route numbers right beside the station (either station name on top and connections underneath, or vice versa), but then on the side a list that has both the route number and route name, since a lot of people don't know the route number but do know the route name (ex: 26 Dupont).

Really? I figured most people knew the number. Route names take up so much space and take time to read through for little benefit in my opinion, but it is your map. If you would like them to know the street they run on for navigational help then you might just put that by the station name as well.

 

[aquateam]

Yes, it is one transit line that's continuous. That's why if you go to the project's website, it shows a rapid transit map where it's one solid orange line. It's called "Crosstown" because you should be able to get across town continuously .. at least Kennedy to Black Creek.

It's detailed here in Chapter 3:
http://thecrosstown.ca/the-project/reports/epr-addendum-report

That describes the changes since the original transit city EA. So for example, how it's now shortened to end at Black Creek, with a big bus bay and maintenance facility there.

Here are some quotes from the above: (Section 3.1.2.1)



Section 3.2.1


My interpretation of the above is that in the tunnel the operator will only focus on operating the doors. When the train leaves the tunnel after Laird the human driver will take over, and when it enters the tunnel the computer driver will take over.

You can also email them if you want confirmation.

That kind of defeats the point of ATC. Or at least you lose out on the big benefit of reduced operating costs. I guess at least you'd get the improved headway management and smoother handling of ATC in the tunneled sections.

Maybe they'd have a mix of automatic trains and human-controlled trains. The automatic trains would short-turn before it goes at-grade, but the human-controlled ones would continue. That way, there would be better service in the tunneled section but you could reduce costs by having fewer operators.

Of course, to have completely automatic trains you'd need platform barrier doors. Do you know if that is a part of the Eglinton LRT? I tried emailing the cross-town team to ask but I think I tried the wrong email address for public relations, and never got a response.

 

[ehlow]

That kind of defeats the point of ATC. Or at least you lose out on the big benefit of reduced operating costs. I guess at least you'd get the improved headway management and smoother handling of ATC in the tunneled sections.

Maybe they'd have a mix of automatic trains and human-controlled trains. The automatic trains would short-turn before it goes at-grade, but the human-controlled ones would continue. That way, there would be better service in the tunneled section but you could reduce costs by having fewer operators.

Of course, to have completely automatic trains you'd need platform barrier doors. Do you know if that is a part of the Eglinton LRT? I tried emailing the cross-town team to ask but I think I tried the wrong email address for public relations, and never got a response.

There are actually lots of places around the world that have automatic driving, yet still have one person on the train to operate doors.

For example, Montreal, many lines in Paris, BART in SF. The Muni in SF runs ATO in tunnel and still has a human operator, which I'm assuming takes over when the vehicle runs on road.

Here's a list of driverless & ATO with human driver:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_urban_metro_subway_systems

When the Toronto subway gets ATO, there would still likely be one human on the train to operate the doors.

There are still benefits to ATO when there's a human staff in the vehicle:
It runs smoother and more precisely, allowing the possibility of platform doors.
It can run more frequently than with human drivers.
It should be more reliable.

All I know re: Eglinton is the doc I posted. I'm also curious about platform doors. It would make sense since it's low-floor vehicles for safety. I could imagine that they'd decide not to do it to save money though.

Usually they're fairly quick to reply to emails using the email on their website. You can also find them at two offices along Eglinton (Bayview and somewhere in the west)

 

[gweed123]

Really? I figured most people knew the number. Route names take up so much space and take time to read through for little benefit in my opinion, but it is your map. If you would like them to know the street they run on for navigational help then you might just put that by the station name as well.

Personally, I know it as "the Dufferin bus", not by the route number. The list with names would just be off to the side, sorted in numerical order for easy reference. The primary reference would still be the route number underneath the station itself. It doesn't have to be a big list (in terms of space on the map), I just think it needs to be there for people who aren't familiar with what route number corresponds to what named route.

 

[P23]

Personally, I know it as "the Dufferin bus", not by the route number. The list with names would just be off to the side, sorted in numerical order for easy reference. The primary reference would still be the route number underneath the station itself. It doesn't have to be a big list (in terms of space on the map), I just think it needs to be there for people who aren't familiar with what route number corresponds to what named route.

Fair enough. I found it difficult to fit everything in that space when I gave it a shot, especially with Line 1 which I sort of made into a sideways U. I go a little overboard with throwing out info I don't find useful as well. Post some pics when you're done.

 

[gweed123]

Fair enough. I found it difficult to fit everything in that space when I gave it a shot, especially with Line 1 which I sort of made into a sideways U. I go a little overboard with throwing out info I don't find useful as well. Post some pics when you're done.

It may very well end up that there won't be enough room, I haven't tried it yet. It's just on my list of stuff to include if it'll fit. And yup, I'll post both it and the full RT and streetcar map when I'm finished them. The system map is almost done. Because it's intended to be an actual system map, I have to include more detail on it than I normally do, like indicating accessible stations.

 

[ShonTron]

Sigh.

What's with all the nastiness?

P23, consider yourself warned. The_lemur, the language is also unnecessary.

 

[aquateam]

There are actually lots of places around the world that have automatic driving, yet still have one person on the train to operate doors.

For example, Montreal, many lines in Paris, BART in SF. The Muni in SF runs ATO in tunnel and still has a human operator, which I'm assuming takes over when the vehicle runs on road.

I'm kind of surprised about Montreal. I frequently get jerked around or thrown forward in the sections between stations, but I suppose that could be when the operators are practicing.

I knew that the doors were manually operated. Usually a train will lie in wait with the doors open. Once it sees that someone is rushing to catch the train, it will wait until the person is about to enter before suddenly and without warning slamming the doors shut. If they are unlucky, body parts may be caught. No machine could be so capricious or sadistic.

The response whenever something gets caught also leaves something to be desired. I once sat in a train for 5 minutes because the doors had been closed before everyone could enter. Someone's backpack was caught in the door behind them and wouldn't budge. Rather than open the doors to let it be removed, the operator seemed to think repeating "vieullez dégager les portes s'il vous plait" on the PA system would be effective. Not wanting to let other people enter the wagons, he would open the doors for a millisecond...which was not enough time to actually free the bag.