Transit Fantasy Maps

[diminutive]

This is exactly how the accounting works. The capital cost is incurred entirely by the 4 hours per day that requires the TTCs $10B worth of infrastructure. Small amounts of off-peak usage never justifies a higher fixed cost (capital expenditure in this case)) manage peak service; peak service needs to do that on its own.

It's not "required" though. Any given bus route that we were talking about converting to streetcar operations is more than capable of handling peak demand as is or with modest frequency increases. Most don't even operate 10 buses in peak hour. Maybe, maybe, in the peak hour streetcar operations could result in more efficient operations in some cases, but for the rest of the day it wouldn't.

To determine whether it's profitable to run off-peak service you only consider the incremental costs of running that additional service; without affixing any percentage of the capital toward it (peak period already absorbed it). The asset being used is free as it would be unused in storage otherwise.

You can't just break apart the costs, though. Making the decision to run streetcars in peak hour entails running streetcars the rest of the day (for the most part).

The argument isn't whether or not streetcars are required (they almost never are in the literal sense of that word). It's what will result in lower operating costs over the life of that asset. And even if a streetcar could produce more efficient operations during peak hour, doesn't mean it will produce lower operating costs per day of operation or whatever.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Rarely will a streetcar make sense financially, you have to look at other benefits they provide outside of the transit world. If we looked exclusively at cost Toronto should have ripped up the streetcar network in the 1970's and called it a day. Streetcars are inherently expensive, and to justify them you have to look in areas other than direct cost comparison with buses.

 

[rbt]

It's not "required" though.

I didn't convey my thought properly. The $10B is a rough capital value of the what the TTC had to provide their services this morning and includes depreciation (it's the value remaining, not the value spent when stuff was new). In the sense that every route was near capacity this morning, those assets were required and when they are not available customers notice.

When Spadina opens and the new trams go into service, the capital value of in-production assets will increase.

 

[rbt]

You can't just break apart the costs, though.

It's very standard across many industries to handle fixed costs separate from incremental costs.

Also, streetcar or subway capacity requirements for peak period doesn't require running streetcars or subway trains all day long. We have 500 idle buses between 10am and 3pm that could be used to provide service mid-day on these more expensive routes; not doing so is a political decision though I'd be surprised if running a bus was actually cheaper than running a tram.

You don't even need to leave the Toronto to find examples of high capacity peak service replaced with buses during mid day; many complain frequently about GO doing this.

Again, what you run mid-day does not impact the fixed costs necessary to accommodate peak periods; that's why they're fixed costs. If you make the decision not to leave any passengers behind during peak periods, it comes at a fixed price. You need X buses or Y trams or Z subway trains; what you use or don't use mid-day doesn't change that.

 

[nhui06]

Looking at the Toronto Pan Am Games map, wondering what will be done transit wise?

Here are some of my points:

- CIBC Pan Am Park (CNE). Probably too late now, but they really need to consider extending the Waterfront line deeper into the Grounds for BMO fields. Wonder if there is anyway they can tunnel down underneath the GO walkway, then add ROWs in the back alleys on the northern side of the CNE to do this. Extend the line all the way to the Dufferin gates area,

- Aquatics Center in U of T Scarborough. They should try experimenting with a new Express line from Don Mills Station on Sheppard all the way to UT Scarborough. Wonder if they have time to widen Sheppard between Pharmacy to Agincourt GO, and run diamond lane buses on this route. If it works, they should consider keeping it until the LRT is built (they need to widen Sheppard anyways for the LRT, so why not start earlier). Order more of the long Artic buses for this route (will they fit in Don Mills?)

- Pan Am Village. Here is where the need to start acting. The Eastern Queens Quay LRT is probably gone, but they can easily widen the street a bit and make a designated bus lane (with the new Artic buses) that will connect up to the Athlete Village. They should be able to finish in a year.

- Markham Pan Am. Here is the area where 2 track daily service on the Stouffville line would have helped, but it is probably too late for that. IMO the Kennedy Bus should have always been used to go all the way up to Hwy & (instead of stopping at Steeles). They should replacing that YRT bus with the 43 Kennedy just going straight up to Unionville station OR maybe have another express Artic bus route that leaves from Don Mills and goes up Birchmount all the way up to Enterprise Rd in Markham, then across to the venue. Again, Sheppard needs to be widened - if they pour all their resources, they should be able to finish in a year just in time.

 

[TTCboy13]

My version of the TTC subway map of the future

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

interesting map ttcboy...

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Just a little overbuilt, don't you think? And where did the Eglinton LRT go?

 

[innsertnamehere]

rouge hill? why the hell do you need a subway line to a subdivision that is already well served by a GO line?

 

[GenerationW]

^ That's why it's in the fantasy map section.

 

[ehlow]

I'm giving drawing lines on a map a try:
I kept drawing lines... it's addictive.

OK I have the DRL from Finch & Don Mills to Weston & Eglinton.

Eglinton I've extended west to Mississauga after the airport in order to serve the office buildings there. I have it joined with the Scar-Malvern LRT up Kingston & Morningside because I like long, continuous lines

North-South I added one line in Scarborough and one in Etobicoke, Vic Park has density. Islington I picked pretty much randomly (lol).

I put Dufferin & Bathurst because they seem to need better service than they currently have. Bathurst has a lot of density throughout.

Finch: I have no idea how it'll fit in the east side.
Sheppard: I guess I converted the subway to LRT.

I added Lawrence-Dixon. Perhaps it's too long. The part through Bridal Path I'm not too sure about.

One thing that could make this less of a fantasy is that some of these lines could be frequent express buses instead of LRT or subway.

My attempt was to try to create something like a grid on concession roads.

Edit: Got the picture to be bigger.

 

[sixrings]

my map ehlow is identical minus the lawrence section between yorks campus and leslie. I figure most people from the east will take the DRL anyway so if lawrence separates for a bit it wouldnt be a big deal.

 

[Johnny Au]

My version of the TTC subway map of the futureView attachment 24055

Since it is a fantasy map, I bet that in a few centuries, the western leg of Line 3 would be extended to Kirby while the eastern leg of Line 1 would be extended to Upper Canada Mall. Line 2 would be extended to Mississauga City Centre.

Oh, and Kirby station would be pink, just like a certain video game character.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

View attachment 24066

I'm giving drawing lines on a map a try:
I kept drawing lines... it's addictive.

OK I have the DRL from Finch & Don Mills to Weston & Eglinton.

Eglinton I've extended west to Mississauga after the airport in order to serve the office buildings there. I have it joined with the Scar-Malvern LRT up Kingston & Morningside because I like long, continuous lines

North-South I added one line in Scarborough and one in Etobicoke, Vic Park has density. Islington I picked pretty much randomly (lol).

I put Dufferin & Bathurst because they seem to need better service than they currently have. Bathurst has a lot of density throughout.

Finch: I have no idea how it'll fit in the east side.
Sheppard: I guess I converted the subway to LRT.

I added Lawrence-Dixon. Perhaps it's too long. The part through Bridal Path I'm not too sure about.

One thing that could make this less of a fantasy is that some of these lines could be frequent express buses instead of LRT or subway.

My attempt was to try to create something like a grid on concession roads.

Edit: Not sure why the picture is so small. Does anybody know how to get around that? The file itself isn't that small.

Just enlarge it in paint


This is very good though. Complete coverage of the city. I think the Islington BRT should be Kipling, but it's fine.

 

[diminutive]

Not exactly my fantasy map, but I think this 1944 TTC map could provide an interesting basis for a "local" service DRL.

Some parts of that don't make any sense nowadays (e.g. danforth streetcar). But it's easy to think of new branches as well (e.g. the Portlands LRT network).

The TTC proposal had a shallow tunnel/trench for most of that route, but converting Queen between Trinitry-Bellwoods and Leslieville could produce the same benefits for little cost.

If we wanted to improve service within downtown, and from the shoulder areas, this type of approach would probably be better than building a traditional metro on any particular corridor.