Transit Fantasy Maps

[innsertnamehere]

transit planning isn't based on that sort of thing, you have to look at intersecting bus routes, population centres and destinations (colleges, universities, malls, etc) how people move around the city, etc. When I draw my line on a map, I think to myself, "If I lived there, would the line be useful? is there a better way to make it useful for more people? where can people go on this line, and how many people can effectively use it?" you have to ask these questions to get a rough estimation on whether the line makes sense.that version of the DRL has several issues, including the fact that the area is already served by the scarborough subway, very little people live along the line, there are little to no destinations along it, etc. Its fun to draw lines on a map, but there really are only a couple of viable transit lines in the city that make sense past having VIVA style express bus service, and it leaves limited possibilities really to discuss.

also, if people want to create a street like I did to illustrate the Queen ROW, use this website:

http://streetmix.net/

Standard Toronto streetwidth is 20 meters.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

transit planning isn't based on that sort of thing, you have to look at intersecting bus routes, population centres and destinations (colleges, universities, malls, etc) how people move around the city, etc. When I draw my line on a map, I think to myself, "If I lived there, would the line be useful? is there a better way to make it useful for more people? where can people go on this line, and how many people can effectively use it?" you have to ask these questions to get a rough estimation on whether the line makes sense.that version of the DRL has several issues, including the fact that the area is already served by the scarborough subway, very little people live along the line, there are little to no destinations along it, etc. Its fun to draw lines on a map, but there really are only a couple of viable transit lines in the city that make sense past having VIVA style express bus service, and it leaves limited possibilities really to discuss.

also, if people want to create a street like I did to illustrate the Queen ROW, use this website:

http://streetmix.net/

Standard Toronto streetwidth is 20 meters.

I understand. I guess you can fault me for trying to address the needs of many.

Here's another attempt. I I tried a king alignment with pape and dundas west as the interchanges. In the West, it because the Jane Street subway after Jane-Weston. Thoughts?

 

[gweed123]

View attachment 20643


Another DRL attempt. This time, I ran it across Albion down weston to weston and eglinton. I did something a little different in Scarborough. I went east from Don Mills Eglinton, to Victoria Park Lawrence, Warden Ellsemere, Progress, STC and Malvern Town Centre. In the central part, I ran it along King street. I chose Keele and Donlands as the interchanges.


Thoughts?

I've done something similar in the past. But honestly, if you want to directly serve Scarborough I think the best option is to use the eastern end of Bloor-Danforth as the DRL. Saves building a boatload of track and does the same thing. The west side is very interesting though.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I've done something similar in the past. But honestly, if you want to directly serve Scarborough I think the best option is to use the eastern end of Bloor-Danforth as the DRL. Saves building a boatload of track and does the same thing. The west side is very interesting though.

Me too. I think the either Albion or Islington off scarlett and weston would do the trick. I wonder which corridor would be higher ridership, that or Jane St to Steeles.

 

[gweed123]

Me too. I think the either Albion or Islington off scarlett and weston would do the trick. I wonder which corridor would be higher ridership, that or Jane St to Steeles.

What I've shown in the past is run up Dufferin to Dupont, then cut northwest via the hydro corridor to Rogers, then up the Georgetown corridor to Mount Dennis.

From there, it can be decided where it continues north via the rail corridor, or continue up Jane. It would be kind of hard to tell how the travel patterns in the west end would shift if there was a DRL terminus at Mount Dennis, until it's built up to that point. Besides, north of Eglinton would certainly be in a subsequent phase anyway. Mount Dennis is a logical terminus that keeps a lot of extension options open.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

What I've shown in the past is run up Dufferin to Dupont, then cut northwest via the hydro corridor to Rogers, then up the Georgetown corridor to Mount Dennis.

From there, it can be decided where it continues north via the rail corridor, or continue up Jane. It would be kind of hard to tell how the travel patterns in the west end would shift if there was a DRL terminus at Mount Dennis, until it's built up to that point. Besides, north of Eglinton would certainly be in a subsequent phase anyway. Mount Dennis is a logical terminus that keeps a lot of extension options open.

Originally I thought it should be Eglinton and Caledonia, but if that happened then the only way would be up Jane. Mount Dennis would keep a lot of options open like you say, but it has the potentinal, depending on where we go to peel off even more riders from Yonge.


I think the bus route ridership would give us an idea. Which bus has higher ridership, Jane or the Albion/Weston and Islington routes?

 

[BurlOak]

Me too. I think the either Albion or Islington off scarlett and weston would do the trick. I wonder which corridor would be higher ridership, that or Jane St to Steeles.

If ridership is roughly equal, I would prefer an alignment that tries to put more of Toronto close to a subway line. This means chosing a more western alignment since Jane is already very close to a subway - especially north of 401.

 

[gweed123]

Originally I thought it should be Eglinton and Caledonia, but if that happened then the only way would be up Jane. Mount Dennis would keep a lot of options open like you say, but it has the potentinal, depending on where we go to peel off even more riders from Yonge.


I think the bus route ridership would give us an idea. Which bus has higher ridership, Jane or the Albion/Weston and Islington routes?

Good points. I don't think that going to Eglinton in the west should be seen as the ultimate terminus, and as such I don't think it should be evaluated as "which alignment up to Eglinton provides maximum relief to the Yonge line?". If that's the line of thinking, you may wind up with a terminus at Eglinton that doesn't make any sense going anywhere north of Eglinton.

Mt. Dennis may not be a high density hub, but it will have quite a few RT lines at it already. You have extension options up the rail corridor into Rexdale, up the rail corridor to Dixon then across there, up Weston and then up Jane, etc etc etc. Yes, the bus routes will give us an indication of where the ridership IS, but not necessarily an indication of how travel patterns will shift with the subway extension being put into place. This is especially true since there will be at least 2 more massive ridership shifts between now and when the DRL reaches Mt. Dennis (Eglinton LRT and hopefully GO REX). The travel patterns may not look anything like what they are today after those two things happen.

For that reason I think Mt. Dennis is a logical option, because it leaves the door open for so many viable alignments, instead of pidgeon-holing the line into only one or possibly no viable extension alignments if another terminus is selected.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

If ridership is roughly equal, I would prefer an alignment that tries to put more of Toronto close to a subway line. This means chosing a more western alignment since Jane is already very close to a subway - especially north of 401.

http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Transit_Planning/Surface_Ridership_2012.jsp

Route Mode/ note Customers per day, Mon-Fri

45 Kipling 18,900
73 Royal York 8,300
89 Weston 15,100
165 Weston Rd North 17,600
35 Jane 44,400
37 Islington 17,000


I think this makes it clear something has to happen on Jane, at first look, of course. I'll go into detail later.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Good points. I don't think that going to Eglinton in the west should be seen as the ultimate terminus, and as such I don't think it should be evaluated as "which alignment up to Eglinton provides maximum relief to the Yonge line?". If that's the line of thinking, you may wind up with a terminus at Eglinton that doesn't make any sense going anywhere north of Eglinton.

Mt. Dennis may not be a high density hub, but it will have quite a few RT lines at it already. You have extension options up the rail corridor into Rexdale, up the rail corridor to Dixon then across there, up Weston and then up Jane, etc etc etc. Yes, the bus routes will give us an indication of where the ridership IS, but not necessarily an indication of how travel patterns will shift with the subway extension being put into place. This is especially true since there will be at least 2 more massive ridership shifts between now and when the DRL reaches Mt. Dennis (Eglinton LRT and hopefully GO REX). The travel patterns may not look anything like what they are today after those two things happen.

For that reason I think Mt. Dennis is a logical option, because it leaves the door open for so many viable alignments, instead of pidgeon-holing the line into only one or possibly no viable extension alignments if another terminus is selected.

Very good. There is not real way to see what would happen if a subway or LRT went up? In theory a model would show us what would work best. I am beginning to like Mt Dennis as well. easier transition then dragging the subway unnecessarily up to Jane Lawrence.

 

[andrewpmk]

http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Transit_Planning/Surface_Ridership_2012.jsp

Route Mode/ note Customers per day, Mon-Fri

45 Kipling 18,900
73 Royal York 8,300
89 Weston 15,100
165 Weston Rd North 17,600
35 Jane 44,400
37 Islington 17,000


I think this makes it clear something has to happen on Jane, at first look, of course. I'll go into detail later.

Isn't the Georgetown GO line a pretty good substitute for a subway on Jane? I can't see any good justification for spending a massive amount of money on a subway there because of that.

Also the Vaughan subway extension passes pretty close to Jane & Finch.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I don't see a point of the DRL north of Eglinton on the west end especially. There is no need to relieve the Spadina line and the ridership figures are really low. even north of Bloor is questionable, all the ridership can easily be handled by Spadina. Spadina already is our western DRL.

 

[gweed123]

Very good. There is not real way to see what would happen if a subway or LRT went up? In theory a model would show us what would work best. I am beginning to like Mt Dennis as well. easier transition then dragging the subway unnecessarily up to Jane Lawrence.

There's ways of modelling it for sure. I just think that the more major changes you institute into a system, the harder it is to accurately model what the travel patterns will be. I say build it up to Eglinton, wait a few years and see how travel patterns shift, and then go from there.

Also, I think Jane would be a perfect candidate for B-Line style BRT. Put that in along Jane for the fraction of the cost of building a subway, and have it feed into the Mt. Dennis hub and the DRL terminus. If the B-Line gets overloaded, then you have your answer as to whether a subway extension would be viable. If the B-Line can handle the demand, then you just saved yourself a boatload of cash. (Side note: I think that approach would have saved us a boatload of money on Sheppard, because the B-Line would have handled the demand).

A DRL extension coupled with a B-Line instead of building all the way up Jane in 1 shot would also allow for money in the interim to be spent on other projects.

Isn't the Georgetown GO line a pretty good substitute for a subway on Jane? I can't see any good justification for spending a massive amount of money on a subway there because of that.

Also the Vaughan subway extension passes pretty close to Jane & Finch.

Potentially, yes. This is why my DRL West alignment up to Eglinton goes up Dufferin and then cuts diagonally, to purposely avoid overlapping with the Georgetown corridor. North of Eglinton, like I said above, I think instituting a B-Line would show how much demand there really would be for a subway.

 

[BurlOak]

I don't see a point of the DRL north of Eglinton on the west end especially. There is no need to relieve the Spadina line and the ridership figures are really low. even north of Bloor is questionable, all the ridership can easily be handled by Spadina. Spadina already is our western DRL.

When all is said and done, a lot comes down to GO. If GO has frequent all-day service, that would greatly affect where the DRL woukd go. Maybe if Metrolinx and TTC would merge, then finally we could build a complete transit network utilizing existing corridors, instead of TTC and GO ignoring each other and working independantly.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

When all is said and done, a lot comes down to GO. If GO has frequent all-day service, that would greatly affect where the DRL woukd go. Maybe if Metrolinx and TTC would merge, then finally we could build a complete transit network utilizing existing corridors, instead of TTC and GO ignoring each other and working independantly.

What do you think of the ridership numbers posted