Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[nfitz]

^
the 86 scarborough should still be running on meadowvale, it's not all being replaced by the LRT, plus there will still be a bus route on sheppard east of where the LRT ends, they could easily run that route up to the zoo as well,

Ah, that's an idea. Start the service at the Zoo, instead of the end of the LRT.

I'd think the 86 Scarborough frequency would be much reduced. It's about a bus every 7 minutes from the Zoo now ... but much of the demand is on Kingston Road, not on Meadowvale. I'd think it would be a 20-minute service ... which wouldn't handle the peaks between Sheppard and the Zoo.

But a combination of whatever is running down Morningside, and whatever runs east on Shepherd to Rouge Hill GO might do the trick.

 

[Amphibius]

Since when is a city zoo classified or even considered an amusement park venue.

The semantics is more of a knock on some other, IMO, absurd higher-order transit proposals that I've heard of such as subways to the CNE (DRL Line) and worse yet to Paramount Canada's Wonderland (Spadina Line).

But all the same, provided the continued existence of the 86 bus (whose route won't be affected by the Scarborough-Malvern Line northeast of Kingston/Morningside) the weekday average handful of patrons that would utilize the Sheppard East LRT in order to arrive at the Zoo would not have to wait longer than every 5 minutes during peak hours for the arrival of a bus @Meadowvale. Also to consider is the Zoo reopening the monorail sytem and extending an arm south to directly intercept SELRT. Doing so leaves open the option of future expansion into Pickering, a prioritized long-term goal for Transit City.

 

[Hipster Duck]

The semantics is more of a knock on some other, IMO, absurd higher-order transit proposals that I've heard of such as subways to the CNE (DRL Line) and worse yet to Paramount Canada's Wonderland (Spadina Line).

But all the same, provided the continued existence of the 86 bus (whose route won't be affected by the Scarborough-Malvern Line northeast of Kingston/Morningside) the weekday average handful of patrons that would utilize the Sheppard East LRT in order to arrive at the Zoo would not have to wait longer than every 5 minutes during peak hours for the arrival of a bus @Meadowvale. Also to consider is the Zoo reopening the monorail sytem and extending an arm south to directly intercept SELRT. Doing so leaves open the option of future expansion into Pickering, a prioritized long-term goal for Transit City.

Okay, so let me get this straight...You think a subway line through downtown south (the DRL) is absurd, but you want to extend the defunct zoo monorail to intercept with the Sheppard East LRT at some sort of intermodal station?

 

[Swarley]

Okay, so let me get this straight...You think a subway line through downtown south (the DRL) is absurd, but you want to extend the defunct zoo monorail to intercept with the Sheppard East LRT at some sort of intermodal station?

I think he meant the idea of a DRL stop at the CNE is absurd... the need for the DRL as a whole is inarguable I'd say.

 

[Amphibius]

Yes, thank you. Obviously that is what I meant.

 

[Hipster Duck]

A DRL station at the Ex is not absurd. It would connect to streetcars, the Dufferin bus, the Lakeshore GO train and the Liberty village neighbourhood.

Even if the CNE DRL station were located at the most illogical spot - like, say, the southwestern end near the Liberty Grand and the windmill - it would be less absurd than resurrecting and extending a zoo monorail to the corner of Sheppard and Meadowvale.

 

[nfitz]

I think he meant the idea of a DRL stop at the CNE is absurd... the need for the DRL as a whole is inarguable I'd say.

Why would it be absurd ... if it runs along there anyways, wouldn't a stop somewhere near King make sense anyways? Given that the Ossington and Dufferin buses, and the Bathurst and Harbourfront streetcars all terminate there, it doesn't seem a terrible place to have a subway station!

 

[Amphibius]

A DRL station at the Ex is not absurd. It would connect to streetcars, the Dufferin bus, the Lakeshore GO train and the Liberty village neighbourhood.

Even if the CNE DRL station were located at the most illogical spot - like, say, the southwestern end near the Liberty Grand and the windmill - it would be less absurd than resurrecting and extending a zoo monorail to the corner of Sheppard and Meadowvale.

Um, we'll already have the Waterfront West LRT running express trips between the Exhibition and Union Stn. Why must the subway converge at this point as well? IMHO, an alignment more oriented towards the innercity (say adjacent King or Queen Streets) would better alleviate the downtown streetcar routes and cater to a broader cross-section of riders (long-haul commuters; resident population of 676,352 people [2001 census] and growing; businessfolk through the CBD; tourists; district shopper clientele; condo & townhouse dwellers) and nodal trip-generators (Art+Design District; Queen West; Chinatown; Eaton Ctr/City Hall; Financial District; St Lawrence Mkt; George Brown College area, etc.). Distillery District would be within walking distance of a King St alignment as well.

I think the necessity of serving Union Stn directly with a E-W line is suspect due to a more northernly alignment's ability to intercept most of the exact same routes which occur further south i.e. the 501, 504, 510, 511, 29 Dufferin, Lakeshore GO @Queen and Roncesvalles, etc. So an illogical spot would be @Exhibition GO/CNE East streetcar depot, since it's only one of the 3 major entrance/access points to the CNE and the condominuim projects are being concentrated more eastwards to around Strachan Ave, not Atlantic which only has a few low-rises to date.

As for the monorail, a big complaint of long-time zoo patrons is that it was shut down. And I've heard plans of the airport's people-mover being extended south to Renforth/Eglinton in order to intercept the Crosstown Line there; so it's completely within reason and plausible to propose similar when were only talking about a link one-third the distance, length and cost of that suggestion. Or cheaper still, just maintain the frequency of the 86 bus between Sheppard and the Zoo entrance, which could soon see double headways of bus traffic should the Rogue Hill bus be revitalized post-SELRT.

 

[glesco]

To get back to the Sheppard LRT announcement, the province announced a eastern terminus at Meadowvale which brought on some discussion. There are several other factors portaining to this area of the city. On April 1st, the province annouced an expansion of the SRT to either 'Markham Road' or 'Malvern Town Centre'. A third factor is the planned Scarbourgh-Malvern LRT which is to run from Kennedy Station into the same area. Several different routing variations of this LRT have been proposed; check out the variations at the city's web site.

The most sensible outcome, IMHO, is that the Sheppard LRT stay as announced, the SRT is expanded to Malvern Town Centre (MTC) and that the Scarboro-Malvern LRT take a route up Morningside, from Kingston Rd, to Sheppard, west on Sheppard to Neilson, then north to MTC with an extension to the Zoo entrance on Old Finch Road.

This would give all those people in that area of our city alot of transit options depending upon where they are going. The service on the portion of the Scarboro-Malvern LRT between MTC and the Zoo could be based upon demand depending upon the season and the time of day (i.e. some trains will make a short turn at MTC)

 

[kEiThZ]

^ That extension would be longer and more cumbersome than simply extending the Sheppard LRT up Meadowvale to the zoo....1.7 km with probably a short tunnel required to get into the zoo off Meadowvale. That would probably cost about 20 million and would be worth more than re-doing any people mover (which would also use city funds).

One point to be missed...improved transit accessibility could also improve attendance to the zoo.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The Agincourt GO Station (on Sheppard East, between Kennedy and Midland) costs:

• Adult single-ride ticket $4.90
• Adult day pass $9.80
• Adult two-ride ticket $9.80
• Adult 10-ride ticket $45.25
• Adult monthly pass $162.00

and takes 20 minutes to get from Agincourt to Union. Passengers travelling one way on TTC first, then on GO Transit, then on TTC again may use a TTC transfer for their second TTC ride. They would transfer at the Reidmount Avenue stop on the LRT to the Agincourt GO station.

Unfortunately, at the present day, there are only 4 trains in morning going to Union. Also, it is currently a bit of a walk (something called a parking lot is in the way). Hopefully, the transfer path would be improved when they build the railway underpass at that location.

However, for those short of time, it is way to speed up their travel to downtown.

 

[W. K. Lis]

A PDF on TRANSIT CITY LIGHT RAIL PROGRAM: SHEPPARD EAST LRT CONNECTION AT DON MILLS STATION to be presented to the commissioners on the 28th is now available for downloading. It's 7 pages in length. It endorses the City/TTC staff position that the Sheppard East Light Rail Transit Line (LRT) should connect to the Sheppard Subway at the subway-platform level of Don Mills Station.

From the report:

Note that staff are currently doing further design work on how Don Mills Station would have to be modified to accommodate Metrolinx’s preferred concept of a continuous east-west light rail line across Sheppard and Finch Avenues, which would be achieved by extending the Etobicoke-Finch West LRT east of Yonge Street via Finch Avenue East, and then south on Don Mills Road, joining the Sheppard East LRT within Don Mills Station. The outcome of this design work will be subject to a future Commission Report

 

[nfitz]

It will be interesting to see how they manage to connect at platforms level, and then keep running north on Don Mills Road.

Interesting to see the real cost of the Sheppard LRT. $624 million, if all above ground. For 15-km. Which gives us just over $40-million per kilometre.

 

[GTS]

I wish they would extend the subway to Consumers and construct a station with a good LRT/subway platform from the outset.

 

[Voltz]

I wish they would extend the subway to Consumers and construct a station with a good LRT/subway platform from the outset.

Do you have the extra $120 million that would cost? Besides, the plan for the interchange at don mills is to have LRT and subway on the same level, the plan for consumers is to have the two modes on separate levels.

Also, more people are heading from east of consumers to the don mills station area than are headed from consumers to the subway, so having the switch at don mills provides for better service.