Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[Ansem]

I still have my letter that I wanted to send to the North York and Scarborough councillors. I had suggested in the letter that they provided detailled information about SE LRT to citizens. They could compare subway vs. the ''weak'' improvements of the LRT.

People at work said that the next candidates would have the final say in the matter (since they want to get elected).
I think if enough citizen demands subway and it get media attention, that would influence candidates to change SE LRT to subway.

I know the Willowdale councillor publically said he wanted a subway between STC and Downsview. I would have started with him and he could talk to the other councillors in the Sheppard Corridor and Scarborough to do the same.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Anyone know how I can lodge a complaint with Metrolinx for neglecting to study extending the Sheppard Subway west to Downsview AND east to Scarborough Town Centre?

Instead of writing a letter, go down in person to the Metrolinx Office and schedule an appointment to meet with someone. When making your appointment, just say you want to have a meeting regarding the Sheppard Transit Corridor and you have some ideas.

 

[Ansem]

Instead of writing a letter, go down in person to the Metrolinx Office and schedule an appointment to meet with someone. When making your appointment, just say you want to have a meeting regarding the Sheppard Transit Corridor and you have some ideas.

we should go as a group and have all our research and arguments prepared in advance.

 

[nfitz]

And then Scarborough residents will be right back to asking why they are always the ones being forced to transfer.

Given the number of people I see transferring everywhere, I really have to question the theory that only people in Scarborough are forced to transfer! What about the people along BD who are forced to transfer to get downtown ... when a subway line could easily have been designed so that it went downtown instead of staying on Bloor.

I frequently use the Don Mills bus. LRT would be a great improvement ... but even better would be if they built it subway (DRL extension) to Eglinton, and then I'd transfer to LRT; hmm, that adds a transfer though ... but it would be faster.

Perhaps it isn't so much that the people in Scarborough are the ones asked to transfer, but they are the ones who complain about it?

 

[Justin10000]

You should transfer between lines in Paris. A transfer involves several blocks, and levels.

 

[threnody]

You should transfer between lines in Paris. A transfer involves several blocks, and levels.

And the stop spacing is comparable to Transit City too! I guess the folks in this thread won't be visiting Paris anytime soon.

 

[Justin10000]

Nope!

I would argue the speed is actually slower than the outer tramlines too. But the metro is heavily used, and packed. I wonder why? Oh! ACCESSIBILITY!

 

[GraphicMatt]

Since we love speed so much, does anyone know what the average speed of the subway is through the downtown stretch (Spadina Station through Bloor Station)?

 

[unimaginative2]

Nope!

I would argue the speed is actually slower than the outer tramlines too. But the metro is heavily used, and packed. I wonder why? Oh! ACCESSIBILITY!

Short distances. As has been pointed out, the total distances covered by Paris subway lines are much shorter than the Transit City lines. For longer trips, the much faster RER is used, and that's even faster than our subways.

The problem with the Transit City lines is that the only logic to many of them appears to be, as Councillor de Baeremaeker boasted, that they would bring a streetcar to every councillor's ward. The main node in Scarborough is Town Centre, yet it's being bypassed by all of these routes. Meanwhile the middle-of-nowhere corner of Sheppard and Morningside is to be the major hub.

 

[Justin10000]

Short distances. As has been pointed out, the total distances covered by Paris subway lines are much shorter than the Transit City lines. For longer trips, the much faster RER is used, and that's even faster than our subways.

So why advocate a subway, when you can build a regional express system with GO?
The RER was designed to mainly provide suburban to suburban service by connecting 19th century rail lines with tunnels in the central core. It does not adequately cover the city. Only provides quick travel THROUGH the city to the outer suburbs. This is what you should advocating for. Not a freaking subway.

The problem with the Transit City lines is that the only logic to many of them appears to be, as Councillor de Baeremaeker boasted, that they would bring a streetcar to every councillor's ward. The main node in Scarborough is Town Centre, yet it's being bypassed by all of these routes. Meanwhile the middle-of-nowhere corner of Sheppard and Morningside is to be the major hub.

Yes, Scarborough TC is the centre of the Universe to Scarberians, I know. Everyone wants to go to STC. I take it, you have not read up on recent news that Scarborough Community Council is now calling for the SRT to the converted to LRT, so it can be connected to the SELRT, therefore providing a connection to STC. So what is your problem? Scarborough is finally getting a decent transit network, yet you people complain. Oh wait. Not a subway.
And the city is not looking to build high density nodes. I would assume people would know this already. High Density Nodal development is flawed planning anyways. What is good about high density nodes with nothing between the nodes?

So yeah, there is nothing wrong with Transit City. Only members misguided assumptions.

 

[unimaginative2]

So why advocate a subway, when you can build a regional express system with GO?
The RER was designed to mainly provide suburban to suburban service by connecting 19th century rail lines with tunnels in the central core. It does not adequately cover the city. Only provides quick travel THROUGH the city to the outer suburbs. This is what you should advocating for. Not a freaking subway.

Okay, your intense distaste for subways shines through and I'm obviously not going to persuade you otherwise, but you'd be surprised to discover how many people use the RER for trips within the péripherique. Moreover, as I mentioned, "suburban" Paris which is served by the RER isn't that much bigger than the 416. Some RER routes are shorter than the Eglinton light rail.

None of this is to say that I don't advocate regional rail--I do. There's a need for all three modes in Toronto. Light rail for local neighbourhood trips, subways for longer intra-urban trips, and regional rail for crosstown and suburban trips.

Yes, Scarborough TC is the centre of the Universe to Scarberians, I know. Everyone wants to go to STC. I take it, you have not read up on recent news that Scarborough Community Council is now calling for the SRT to the converted to LRT, so it can be connected to the SELRT, therefore providing a connection to STC. So what is your problem? Scarborough is finally getting a decent transit network, yet you people complain. Oh wait. Not a subway.

Uh yeah, I'm assuming you're a downtown resident. But "Scarberians" are the people who ride transit in Scarborough so it might make a bit of sense to build transit to where they want to go.

A "decent" transit network that doesn't serve established travel patterns (radial to STC) and still requires an unnecessary transfer at Kennedy or Don Mills and that will cost as much as or more than finishing the two subway lines. On top of that, it takes people wildly out of their way to Markham and Sheppard if they're trying to go west from STC to North York.

And the city is not looking to build high density nodes. I would assume people would know this already. High Density Nodal development is flawed planning anyways. What is good about high density nodes with nothing between the nodes?

Yeah, apparently that's the latest planning fad. I tend to prefer the European model of transit-centred development. Neighbourhoods are built centred on rapid transit stations and all points are within a reasonable walking distance from the station. The key there is to build the rapid transit before you build the neighbourhood. This is something we're only slowly getting the hang of here.

It's a shame, because we embraced neighbourhood unit planning with tremendous zeal. The only problem is that we centred them on arbitrary arterial intersections rather than on transit stations. Part of the problem might be that our transit lines hew so closely to the arterial street grid and arterials make better neighbourhood boundaries than neighbourhood centres.

So yeah, there is nothing wrong with Transit City. Only members misguided assumptions.

Haha. Yeah. It's perfect.

 

[kEiThZ]

So why advocate a subway, when you can build a regional express system with GO?

The RER was designed to mainly provide suburban to suburban service by connecting 19th century rail lines with tunnels in the central core. It does not adequately cover the city. Only provides quick travel THROUGH the city to the outer suburbs. This is what you should advocating for. Not a freaking subway.

It's obvious you haven't travelled much since RER seems to be your only reference. Anyway, GO is planning RER type service on Lakeshore initially and then other lines as demand allows. However, for the inner suburbs, subway is required. Forcing tens of thousands of people a day to transfer at Kennedy when their destination is STC (and you can add McCowan's ridership there too since it's really a glorified kiss and ride for STC) is just ridiculous. I challenge you to find a single Scarberian that would keep that transfer to get even the extended SRT. I am from Malvern and I'd rather get quick access to a subway at STC than LRT at my doorstep.

Yes, Scarborough TC is the centre of the Universe to Scarberians, I know. Everyone wants to go to STC. I take it, you have not read up on recent news that Scarborough Community Council is now calling for the SRT to the converted to LRT, so it can be connected to the SELRT, therefore providing a connection to STC. So what is your problem?

The only reason the SRT is being converted is because Scarborough residents are sick of being stuck with an orphan fleet. Interlined services was not brought up at all by Scarborough Community Council. That's an added benefit to be sure but it's not part of the proposal and there's no guarantee that will happen. It would be expensive to build those connections since the SRT extension even if it's using LRT is supposed to be grade separated.

Scarborough is finally getting a decent transit network, yet you people complain. Oh wait. Not a subway.

Yep. Cause we are sick of transferring when there is absolutely no reason for a transfer to be there.

And the city is not looking to build high density nodes. I would assume people would know this already. High Density Nodal development is flawed planning anyways. What is good about high density nodes with nothing between the nodes?

It's flawed alright. The buildings are sprouting up at STC. It's the designated urban growth centre. But the hub is to be built at Kennedy. Great logic there.

As for non-nodal high density development, take a drive down Sheppard East part Markham and tell me how much potential you see for it.

 

[unimaginative2]

What really infuriates me is when people who live downtown and ride the streetcar five stops to school lecture suburbanites about how they should be travelling. And whenever anybody ever complains that it isn't pleasant sitting on a streetcar for an hour to get to the subway, the LRT fans pull out the old chestnut that it's all their fault: they should work closer to home. Of course they completely neglect the fact that it's not 1955 anymore and (amazing, I know) some families have more than one breadwinner. Even more amazing, those multiple workers from the same family might work in different fields. One family member might work in a bank headquarters while another might work in a warehouse. It's not likely that those two employers would both be located within six blocks of a single home. And some people actually switch jobs multiple times in their life. I guess they should sell their home and move every time to remain within the sacred six-block radius.

 

[Ansem]

Just like Miller thinks

Toronto is downtown, who cares about Scarborough, North York and Etobicoke?

If we get a mayor that will understand that Toronto includes every part and not only downtown...This city will be even greater.

 

[Rainforest]

So why advocate a subway, when you can build a regional express system with GO?

That depends on the route. There is no rail line that runs E-W across the north of 416. So, Sheppard subway cannot be substituted by GO.