Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[kEiThZ]

High praise for the voice of NIMBY opposition to development on top of subway corridors.

So now a councilor who opposes less intrusive construction and prefers a far more invasive project is a NIMBY? Heck, the SELRT does not even run anywhere close to her ward. While she may not always be the sharpest knife in the drawer, it is telling that Karen Stintz has become the voice of reason on transit issues on this council.

 

[waterloowarrior]

So now a councilor who opposes less intrusive construction and prefers a far more invasive project is a NIMBY? Heck, the SELRT does not even run anywhere close to her ward. While she may not always be the sharpest knife in the drawer, it is telling that Karen Stintz has become the voice of reason on transit issues on this council.

He's referring to how she got onto Council

 

[W. K. Lis]

But I want a subway! I don't care that it is more expensive, I want a subway! Now! If you don't give me a subway, I will tell everyone you are a bad person! I want a subway! I will hold my breath, until I get a subway! I want, I want, I want a subway! I don't care if a subway is more expensive, I want a subway! Who cares that you don't have the money, I want a subway, NOW!

You never give me anything. You don't like me.

I want, I want, I want a subway! I'm not listening, my fingers are in my ears. La, la, la, la, la...

 

[DavidH]

He's referring to how she got onto Council

I suspect she realizes full well that a subway isn't going to happen, so she can grandstand for NIMBY voters while looking like the voice of reason, all without any risk.

 

[nfitz]

I suspect she realizes full well that a subway isn't going to happen, so she can grandstand for NIMBY voters while looking like the voice of reason, all without any risk.

Ah ... she's a Tory then? I've never heard of her before ...

 

[kEiThZ]

I suspect she realizes full well that a subway isn't going to happen, so she can grandstand for NIMBY voters while looking like the voice of reason, all without any risk.

I wouldn't rule out a subway extension just yet. With an election next year, there is a real possibility that a new mayor with a fresh perspective could push for a subway extension and termination of the SELRT at STC or Agincourt.

 

[Ansem]

I wouldn't rule out a subway extension just yet. With an election next year, there is a real possibility that a new mayor with a fresh perspective could push for a subway extension and termination of the SELRT at STC or Agincourt.

Anyone proposing a Sheppard subway from Downsview to STC will have North York and Scarborough votes on a silver plater.

Maybe we should choose a new strategy. Instead of a petition against Sheppard East, a letter to Smitherman or other candidates on behalf of UrbanToronto with all the facts

-a billion for an extra 6-7 kph
-no nothern crosstown
-STC and NYC not being linked
-Sheppard subway doing better than 4 of Chicago's line who are 4 time longer and all going downtown
-Sheppard ridership would be a success if compare to many other subway around the world
etc...(other can find arguments here)

And off course since he's a politician, we have to give him reasons to support this...
-like network connectivity
-both town center connected
etc(other can find arguments here)

Like in today's national post polls:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...new-poll-paints-bleak-picture-for-miller.aspx

It really looks ugly for Miller with 80% who wants him gone. If a candidate were to proposed this project, he would EASILY win. We just keep on reminding him that having both North York and Scarborough in your pocket and with the city anti-Miller, his chances are HUGE.

Politics 101. What is the main objective of a politician?
Getting elected. A politician will do anything to get there.

So how about a well documented file attached to the letter with reference and sent on the behalf of Urbantoronto?

 

[kEiThZ]

^ Unfortunately that view is not uniform across UT's membership. As much as I would like to see a subway get built I would not want to impose that view on someone else by passing it on behalf of UT.

Beyond that, Miller's not as vulnerable as he seems. That poll was taken 2 weeks after the strike. Come next year, all could be forgotten. Unless the province compels him to massively increase taxes by not bailing him out.....

Also, I think the LRTs were actually easier to sell in the burbs and that's been part of the political consideration (a LRT line to every ward). Most of the public thinks these lines are some sort of very fast tram/streetcar or some sort of light subway. In my experience, very few people understand what LRT is or the trade-offs involved in the Transit City Plan. If you want to attack the plan, a public education effort about the downsides of TC are necessary.

I would support, though, a group letter to Smitherman, explaining why at least some modifications to Transit City are necessary so that funds aren't being deployed in a haphazard fashion to knee cap existing transit lines.

 

[Ansem]

But I want a subway! I don't care that it is more expensive, I want a subway! Now! If you don't give me a subway, I will tell everyone you are a bad person! I want a subway! I will hold my breath, until I get a subway! I want, I want, I want a subway! I don't care if a subway is more expensive, I want a subway! Who cares that you don't have the money, I want a subway, NOW!

You never give me anything. You don't like me.

I want, I want, I want a subway! I'm not listening, my fingers are in my ears. La, la, la, la, la...

It's not about money here...
It's about political vision and will

We have the right to say, we disagree with his vision...
Most true international city with 1st class transit (and they are not all richer than us) would be on the floor laughing for minutes than get up and ask us if its a joke.

How can we sabotage a subway line like this? He doesn' think long term... Its pure stupidity. Sheppard out perform 4 of Chicago's Subway line with 2 of them 20KM long and over 20 station linked to downtown Loop

Like I said...
Money have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Proof? Metrolinx wants a north Crosstown

TTC: Let's combine Finch LRT with Don Mill LRT At Don Mills Station...How pathetic is that???

 

[nfitz]

How pathetic is that???

On a scale of 1 to 10? I'd give it a 7.

 

[Ansem]

^ Unfortunately that view is not uniform across UT's membership. As much as I would like to see a subway get built I would not want to impose that view on someone else by passing it on behalf of UT.

Beyond that, Miller's not as vulnerable as he seems. That poll was taken 2 weeks after the strike. Come next year, all could be forgotten. Unless the province compels him to massively increase taxes by not bailing him out.....

Also, I think the LRTs were actually easier to sell in the burbs and that's been part of the political consideration (a LRT line to every ward). Most of the public thinks these lines are some sort of very fast tram/streetcar or some sort of light subway. In my experience, very few people understand what LRT is or the trade-offs involved in the Transit City Plan. If you want to attack the plan, a public education effort about the downsides of TC are necessary.

I would support, though, a group letter to Smitherman, explaining why at least some modifications to Transit City are necessary so that funds aren't being deployed in a haphazard fashion to knee cap existing transit lines.

I undestand some of us were against the petition and others were skeptical that Sheppard East could be modified or change to subway.

Are there really member who would not support a candidate who would promise a complete Sheppard subway?

I'm just proposing a letter to those candidate so they would strongly consider adding that project to their campaign. Miller could have been good at selling his LRT to the suburb but if a candidate were to do the education part for us and on top of that propose a subway, you know that most of them would change their minds.

Last time I check, the business community are strongly against it and North York and Scarborough have no love for Miller. Last 2 elections proved it.
Low participation is Miller's hope. After the strike and taxes increase, I do think there will be more voters this time...

Isn't what opponents do? Finding major flaws in the others vision.

 

[Rainforest]

But I want a subway! I don't care that it is more expensive, I want a subway! Now! If you don't give me a subway, I will tell everyone you are a bad person! I want a subway! I will hold my breath, until I get a subway! I want, I want, I want a subway! I don't care if a subway is more expensive, I want a subway! Who cares that you don't have the money, I want a subway, NOW!

Unfortunately, this is not that simple.

We can look at it this way. First, we abandon the 8 km subway extension (to STC) and replace it with an equivalent length of LRT (to Sheppard / McCowan). Its speed is lower, but the capacity is sufficient for the corridor, the reliability improves ... and we spend only 25% of what the subway would cost. Sounds great so far.

Then, it appears that we have to add 7 more km of LRT - up to Meadowvale. Ridership on that segment does not warrant LRT, and the speed won't improve, but we cannot keep a bus since that would introduce yet another transfer. Furthermore, we decide to add 7 km of Finch - Don Mills LRT bypass, which would not be needed if we extended the subway.

Our cost has climbed to 65% of the subway's cost instead of 25%, and we do not get the proportional benefit. Our long but slow crosstown line cannot work well for the purpose it is trying to serve. We have an underused eastern rail section which adds to the maintenance costs. And, we have disrupted the Finch East travel patterns.

 

[nfitz]

Are there really member who would not support a candidate who would promise a complete Sheppard subway?

Absolutely and unquestionably.

Ignoring the studies that show that the demand is well below subway levels (particularly east of Victoria Park and west of Yonge). Ignoring that a subway extension will do nothing to service the 2/3 of Sheppard East where no subway is proposed ...

By the time the election comes, construction will well be underway. Funding has been secured. Agreements have been signed between 3 levels of government.

The cost of cancelling contracts alone will be high. And then there is no guarantee of funding. Sheppard East is about $1-billion. To complete STC to Downsview would be almost 12 km. Let's be generous and low-ball it $3-billion. But there isn't $3-billion available. For that price you could almost build the Sheppard LRT, the Don Mills LRT, and the Scaborough-Morningside LRT.

You'll create a situation exactly like Ottawa when the incoming mayor cancelled the $780-million O-Train extension after the 2006 election in favour of other schemes. Contracts had already been awarded and completion was scheduled for fall 2009. Well it's fall 2009 now, and the city has paid out $70-million on the project, may still have to pay out up to another $200-million in damages to the contractor. And the other options? Despite money falling out of the sky recently for Ontario transit, virtually none of it has landed on Ottawa. 3 years later they have a new plan, but they are only talking of starting construction in another 3 years ... with the first $3.2-billion phase not opening until 2017. But that's still hugely tentative ... a change in mayor in 2010 could easily destroy that plan as well. And this new plan? Phase 1 sounds identical to what they were talking about when I lived in Ottawa in the 1980s!

The Sheppard LRT is going ahead. Attempts to change it to subway at this stage could likely only result in a loss of the entire project and will only play into the hands of the generally anti-Transit political groups. Though frankly with the signed agreement in place with the 3 governments, it would likely be more difficult to change now, than it is to change the amending formula in the Canadian Constitution!

 

[Justin10000]

YEah, and good luck in going to the Province, and Feds for the extra money to build a subway, after you just snubbed them.

People think it won't be that hard to change plans that are already in motion. Go and look at Ottawa's case, and see why trying to get a subway will most likely get you nothing.

 

[kEiThZ]

^^ The Ottawa situation was unique. The original LRT line was north-south and would not serve the vast majority of commuters who travel east-west. And that 800 million was being spent largely to replace an already running north-south line. And by the time the planning was done, there wasn't even a tunnel....which was the entire point of the project...to get all the transit traffic off the clogged downtown streets. It's akin to ripping up St. Clair to convert from a streetcar to a Transit City line. O'Brien was right to cancel it and focus the city's tax dollars on actually serving transit riders. Why should he shoulder the blame for the stupid decisions of the previous mayor? Throwing good money after bad should not be applauded or accepted as the norm.

As a Malvernite, I would fully support the scrapping of both the SELRT and the SMLRT. Both could be replaced with cheap and easy to build BRT. In fact, service coordination would also be easier since the SM BRT could link up with the Kingston BRT. Sacrificing those projects for a subway extension would be a fair trade-off, since the vast majority of riders would still see significant improvements in travel time under this scenario. More money can also be saved by downgrading the SRT to a Transit City LRT as proposed by the Metrolinx BCA.

As for the impact of the election. Worst case scenario: the SELRT can be finished off at Agincourt and we can get interlined SRT-SELRT service. By the time the election is done, they won't have done much construction where it'll really matter: between Don Mills and Agincourt GO. This does allow for some flexibility on where the line can be terminated in the west.