Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[gweed123]

It was to benefit Scarborough without spending far more than required to provide the required service. Any alternative kills the other. If the Sheppard subway gets built you could say it wasn't about helping Scarborough it was about killing the SELRT forever and wasting billions in the process.

Except that the SELRT wasn't proposed first, half built, and then cut of at its knees by a subway...

 

[EnviroTO]

Except that the SELRT wasn't proposed first, half built, and then cut of at its knees by a subway...

The Bloor streetcar was cut off at its knees by the subway. The Yonge streetcar was cut off at its knees by the subway. Bus service on Sheppard was dramatically reduced due to the Sheppard Subway. All options kill other options.

 

[gweed123]

The Bloor streetcar was cut off at its knees by the subway. The Yonge streetcar was cut off at its knees by the subway. Bus service on Sheppard was dramatically reduced due to the Sheppard Subway. All options kill other options.

The but the streetcars on Bloor and Yonge were REPLACED by the subway. They were lower forms of transit that were replaced with higher order transit. In the case of the SELRT, it was a proposal that was a lower quality transit than what the initial plan called for (a subway). It's the same type of thing as Ford wanting to replace the streetcars with buses. You're taking the transit on the corridor (either existing or proposed) and bumping it down a notch.

 

[EnviroTO]

The but the streetcars on Bloor and Yonge were REPLACED by the subway. They were lower forms of transit that were replaced with higher order transit. In the case of the SELRT, it was a proposal that was a lower quality transit than what the initial plan called for (a subway).

The Sheppard subway leaves Sheppard east of Kennedy with a lower order transit.

It's the same type of thing as Ford wanting to replace the streetcars with buses. You're taking the transit on the corridor (either existing or proposed) and bumping it down a notch.

No because switching to buses doesn't actually save any money. Choosing SELRT saves money and serves the expected passenger volumes. Switching to buses on Queen does not save money and does not meet the expected passenger volumes. The TTC already had plans to work on some sort of improvements on King and Queen because even streetcars aren't cutting it.

 

[lafard]

Hogwash. The RTP was basically a roll-up of the various regional demands. Toronto asked for LRTs. That's what it got. Do you have a single shred of evidence to back up your assertion that we would not have gotten more subways if we had asked for them? Seems to me we got what we wanted and the province didn't even demand changes to the plan even after estimates doubled....they phased it out sure, but they still have no insisted on outright cutting lines.

We'll see about that. I am willing to bet that in some form or another it will be completed. Even though many of have disagreed with Lastman plunking a subway on Sheppard, Miller still followed it up by making LRT on Sheppard the first priority over everything else. And now Ford is gunning to make this corridor a priority over everything else. I disagree with them. However, history seems to show that Sheppard is a priority for our political leaders.

Oh, we might have asked for funding, and even gotten it, but it is low priority and would have been dropped off the same as Don Mills.

With limited money Sheppard would end up on the bottom of the funding list, again and again.

Arguably in the longer term, the northern crosstown link will end up being built in the Parkway belt, for both political and financial reasons - a BRT down the 407 median would be incredibly cheap to install and much faster than a feeder subway. Both northern subway extensions make provisions for this link. If built, Sheppard will never be anything more than a local line. A very expensive one.

That's your judgement. Lots of people will disagree with you.

Take out the politicians and Sheppard is not a huge priority for limited funding.

They did pick Finch. Remember Metrolinx's vision of joining Finch West and Sheppard East along Don Mills? They could very easily have picked Finch and run it end-to-end and it might have made more sense than that Finch West-Sheppard East
combo, especially after they cut that branch to STC.

That was lines-on-a-map-itis.

Continuing Finch across risks looking unecessarily redundant. I don't think it is - the diversionary effects of the subway have proven to be fairly minimal - but it would be an expensive link when money is limited. A Don-Mills stn to Finch via Don Mills link might be worth pursuing but would also be the end of subway extensions for the very same redundant construction purposes.

And you take your blinders off. Are you seriously going to suggest that Sheppard East is a higher priority than Eglinton or the DRL? Or replacing the crumbling SRT?

Nothing of the sort. Sheppard is without a doubt the least important line of any of the half dozen choices you have.

However, you do have to provide some sort of improved feeder service to the northeast part of the city.

People love to challenge the rationale for Sheppard subway extensions on numbers. Well then based purely on numbers, can somebody explain why this is a higher priority than even a Yonge North extension?

Politics. Vaughan subway was very low priority too.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Politics. Vaughan subway was very low priority too.

Bolded for emphasis by me. If as the letter from Adam Vaughan that another member has posted on these boards TC's goal was to serve all corners of the city, rebuild priority neighborhoods, etc, etc. Where in this justification does Sheppard gain priority. It doesn't, as you put it, it was politically motivated.

- Malvern would have served more of a priority neighborhood than Sheppard (North York, Northern Scarborough)
- Finich West would have brought reliable transit to a corner of the city that is vastly under served
- Eglinton would have served more riders and have brought, as many argue a benefit of TC is, redevelopment/densification of Eglinton. As well as serve the airport
- Don Mills would have relieved pressure on the Yonge line

And yet Sheppeard E was the priority, can anyone explan that without getting into politics?

 

[nfitz]

Then please explain why SELRT is such a priority to TC, when Sheppard is not a priority for anything?

It was simply the first project out of the box, followed closely by Eglinton. Why would one even assume there is a conspiracy?

If Eglinton was first, would you be saying that it was a conspiracy to kill the Eglinton subway?

If SRT was first, would you say it's a conspiracy to stop the Danforth extension?

Though I guess that's how conspiracy theorists think ...

 

[drum118]

Then please explain why SELRT is such a priority to TC, when Sheppard is not a priority for anything?

1. First one to have its EA and business case done.
2. It would be the fastest one to be built as well providing better service to the Melvern area. 2014 vs. 2018
3. Cost to build was easier to handle.
4. Would finish off Sheppard for transit.

Until you have a ridership based at 10,000 for peak time, like the Bloor Streetcar did in 1953, then you move to the next ladder rung of transit and that subway.

You are not even close to that number today, let along 2031. Just because there an LRT on the surface when it comes time to build a subway, there is nothing stopping building it other than the final connection to Don Mills. To make that final connect, it would mean a year of bus service or less. One reason I had preferred to see the line to go to Victoria Park with the subway and leave the LRT on the surface at that point.

 

[GenerationW]

Follow where the money came from

You're all wrong. Sheppard was first for a very simple reason: There was Federal money being offered.

In his first term, Miller pushed very hard for a Sheppard subway extension but York Region and Greg Sorbara won the day with Spadina. That deal was finalized in late Summer '06, with the actual public announcement coming in Spring '07.

To appease Toronto, and assuming his government stayed in power, Jim Flaherty promised to fund a Sheppard (and ONLY Sheppard) extension some time down the line using the same formula as Spadina -- a 1/3 Federal contribution. Much to his surprise, Mayor Miller (now seeing the light of the boy wonder Giambrone's new plan) asked if it would be okay to get a lot less money for an LRT instead of a subway. Once Flaherty recovered from shock, he naturally said yes.

After the Harper government held on to power in Fall '08, enough time had passed, the SELRT deal was finalized, announced in May '09, and here we are. Or we're not. We'll see.

That this project would prevent any future suburban subway extensions (with the possible exception of Yonge north) for decades was an unintended consequence that pleased Giambrone to no end.

Again, the subway vs LRT is a false dichotomy. It's still LRT vs "nothing". Had McGuinty given us a plate of cash for subway expansion, I can assure you that NONE of that money would have gone to Sheppard.

With Miller and Flaherty both pimping for a subway, McGuinty would have jumped aboard with bells on beyond a shadow of a doubt. But look at the bright side -- this whole deal went a long way to getting Rob Ford elected. The law of unintended consequences really works in mysterious ways.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

It was simply the first project out of the box, followed closely by Eglinton. Why would one even assume there is a conspiracy?

If Eglinton was first, would you be saying that it was a conspiracy to kill the Eglinton subway?

If SRT was first, would you say it's a conspiracy to stop the Danforth extension?

Though I guess that's how conspiracy theorists think ...

It was the first out of the blocks because it's the project that they wanted to be first out of the blocks... The Spadina extension was the same thing, it was brought to the forefront because York chose to bring it to the forefront.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Realistically the first out of the gate had to be Sheppard or Finch if they wanted something done quickly. The other projects are too time-consuming.

 

[kEiThZ]

Realistically the first out of the gate had to be Sheppard or Finch if they wanted something done quickly. The other projects are too time-consuming.

Since when was project timeline a determinant? If that was the case, there's even easier corridors we can find.

They should have picked the most important corridors based on need. They made Sheppard first not because the BCA first (that was achieved through collusion), or because it was "first out of the box" (because they pushed it). It was first because they wanted to implement this grand vision for LRTs zipping across town and to make sure they contrasted it with subways, they had to find a corridor with an unfinished subway and start there first. Too bad they didn't think to ask Scarborough residents what they would think of getting another version of the SRT and Kennedy station.

 

[GTS]

It is Christmas Eve and I was on the 85 this morning and was glad to see that the by-pass at the Agincourt Go Station is now in use. I already wrote on another thread because I was just on my Blackberry and I have a slow server and it takes forever to jump from thread to thread on it. The by-pass reduces Sheppard to one lane each way for a short stretch, but I hope now construction on the grade seperation speeds up and soon traffic is improved on this busy route.

There is left turn lanes there as well, so that might help traffic keep moving a bit.

 

[LAz]

We could perhaps do our own EA of the sheppard subway extension? Why not?

 

[nfitz]

We could perhaps do our own EA of the sheppard subway extension? Why not?

Class or individual?