Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[spider]

You kind of picked a bad day because the first snow turns drivers into idiots, but point taken.

I had to take my wife to a 9:45 am medical appointment at TGH, she is not capable of riding on the TTC so I had to drive. I calculated that in order to arrive at the TGH on University Ave. I would have to get on the Don Valley Parkway no later than 8:15 am which I did with great trepidation considering the arrival of the year's first bit of snow.

Imagine my surprise to see the traffic moving better than I had ever seen an hour later in clear weather! For those who are familiar with the route, I turned off the DVP at the Bayview/Bloor exit and sailed nonstop up the hill to Bloor at the speed limit.
I can only explain this anomaly as the weather scared some drivers off the road or they were delayed by much worse driving conditions further north. Does this mean many of the cars on this route begin their journey from many miles away?

 

[kEiThZ]

Does anybody have a breakdown on the land cost for the LRT projects? Tunnel would be another one. If you build BRT you still have the tunnel and land acquisition components to deal with.

What tunnel? Just have a surface transfer. And land acquisition would be minimal. I don't think any is required east of McCowan.

 

[rbt]

What tunnel? Just have a surface transfer. And land acquisition would be minimal. I don't think any is required east of McCowan.

If a surface transfer is good enough, then it is also good enough for LRT too and shouldn't be included there.

There was concern about transfer difficulty (and bridge width?) which is one of the escalators for Sheppards cost. Remove that concern and it gets quite a bit cheaper.

 

[GenerationW]

Sheppard isn't the end all and be all of transportation corridors in this city. Not by a long shot. It's way down the list. Yet some people will live and die by it.

To the point of irrationality.

Then why was Sheppard the first Transit City project approved and not "way down the list"? Why wasn't that irrational?

Sorry, but any argument that Sheppard is now suddenly "way down the list" of transportation corridors is totally hypocritical.

 

[Second_in_pie]

How much would it cost to realistically finish the Sheppard line Downview to SCC? I'd think about $1B to do the western leg, and $2.5B to do the eastern leg. I think the main driver in subway construction costs is the huge stations that the TTC builds. If they keep station costs down to $50M each then we could actually finish what we started using the funds McGuinty gave TTC for SELRT, Finch LRT. I'd be ok sacrificing the Finch LRT and SELRT in favour of having a completed Sheppard line as I think it'll be a better network to have a completed E-W subway line above the 401 and reduces the vehicle type transfers on Sheppard.

I'm guessing that cutting down on station size and maybe elevating between VP and Agincourt or something could help cut costs on the eastern section. Otherwise, sounds about right. I don't understand what's so hard about the concept of investing on our future though. Sure, Sheppard and Eglinton will cost a bit to get up and running as subways, but that's a trade in for vastly superior transit coverage, new space for TOD, and better travel times citywide.

 

[rbt]

Sure, Sheppard and Eglinton will cost a bit to get up and running as subways, but that's a trade in for vastly superior transit coverage, new space for TOD, and better travel times citywide.

I'm not seeing it myself. We could have 2 LRT lines to the airport in 2020 if a bit of funding comes back in 2011 (and McGuinty hinted to Miller at one time that it could) but there will be zero subway lines to the airport during my unborn grandchilds lifetime.

 

[lafard]

Then why was Sheppard the first Transit City project approved and not "way down the list"? Why wasn't that irrational?

Sorry, but any argument that Sheppard is now suddenly "way down the list" of transportation corridors is totally hypocritical.

Yes, there is some sort of left wing conspiracy going on, and transit city was announced mere minutes before funding was announced for the Sheppard extension.

Of course.

Again, the subway vs LRT is a false dichotomy. It's still LRT vs "nothing". Had McGuinty given us a plate of cash for subway expansion, I can assure you that NONE of that money would have gone to Sheppard.

The LRT did NOT KILL the sheppard subway. It will not ever be built, LRT or not. It's simply not an effective use of money.

Of course, transportation planners realized this, and given the need for some sort of improved connection to the east end of the City, Sheppard was the natural location for this connection. They could have also picked Finch, but that would require substantially more construction as it would have to get all the way to Yonge street.

And why is Sheppard first? Again, not because there is some left wing conspiracy to slay the evil Subway dragon. no, it's merely the shortest and simplest of the lines to build.

Please remove the foil hat. Thank you.

 

[kEiThZ]

Yes, there is some sort of left wing conspiracy going on, and transit city was announced mere minutes before funding was announced for the Sheppard extension.

Of course.

Again, the subway vs LRT is a false dichotomy. It's still LRT vs "nothing". Had McGuinty given us a plate of cash for subway expansion, I can assure you that NONE of that money would have gone to Sheppard.

Hogwash. The RTP was basically a roll-up of the various regional demands. Toronto asked for LRTs. That's what it got. Do you have a single shred of evidence to back up your assertion that we would not have gotten more subways if we had asked for them? Seems to me we got what we wanted and the province didn't even demand changes to the plan even after estimates doubled....they phased it out sure, but they still have no insisted on outright cutting lines.

The LRT did NOT KILL the sheppard subway. It will not ever be built, LRT or not.

We'll see about that. I am willing to bet that in some form or another it will be completed. Even though many of have disagreed with Lastman plunking a subway on Sheppard, Miller still followed it up by making LRT on Sheppard the first priority over everything else. And now Ford is gunning to make this corridor a priority over everything else. I disagree with them. However, history seems to show that Sheppard is a priority for our political leaders.

It's simply not an effective use of money.

That's your judgement. Lots of people will disagree with you.

Of course, transportation planners realized this, and given the need for some sort of improved connection to the east end of the City, Sheppard was the natural location for this connection. They could have also picked Finch, but that would require substantially more construction as it would have to get all the way to Yonge street.

They did pick Finch. Remember Metrolinx's vision of joining Finch West and Sheppard East along Don Mills? They could very easily have picked Finch and run it end-to-end and it might have made more sense than that Finch West-Sheppard East combo, especially after they cut that branch to STC.

And why is Sheppard first? Again, not because there is some left wing conspiracy to slay the evil Subway dragon. no, it's merely the shortest and simplest of the lines to build.

Please remove the foil hat. Thank you.

And you take your blinders off. Are you seriously going to suggest that Sheppard East is a higher priority than Eglinton or the DRL? Or replacing the crumbling SRT?

People love to challenge the rationale for Sheppard subway extensions on numbers. Well then based purely on numbers, can somebody explain why this is a higher priority than even a Yonge North extension?

 

[SimonP]

People love to challenge the rationale for Sheppard subway extensions on numbers. Well then based purely on numbers, can somebody explain why this is a higher priority than even a Yonge North extension?

There are two types of numbers that matter, rider counts and vote counts and the latter tends to take precedence. It's the same reason Sheppard was given priority in the Network 2011 plan. Transit planning in Toronto has to deal with three preconditions:
*Etobicoke voters won't support transit even if it is coming to their front door
*Old City votes will support new transit even if it doesn't come anywhere near them
*North York and Scarborough voters will support transit, but only if it serves them.

To get support for any transit plan you thus need to win over either Scarborough or North York, or better yet both. Sheppard East has the advantage of being the only route that can appeal to both North York and Scarborough.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

There are two types of numbers that matter, rider counts and vote counts and the latter tends to take precedence. It's the same reason Sheppard was given priority in the Network 2011 plan. Transit planning in Toronto has to deal with three preconditions:
*Etobicoke voters won't support transit even if it is coming to their front door
*Old City votes will support new transit even if it doesn't come anywhere near them
*North York and Scarborough voters will support transit, but only if it serves them.

To get support for any transit plan you thus need to win over either Scarborough or North York, or better yet both. Sheppard East has the advantage of being the only route that can appeal to both North York and Scarborough.

Transit as a political tool (i.e. vote grabber/getter) is just as bad as transit as a social tool to rebuild "priority neighborhoods".

 

[Paleo]

While nipping the Sheppard subway bud is an excellent side benefit, it is just that. A side benefit.

Increased capacity and shared infrastructure with the planned SRT replacement are the immediate ones.

 

[Dan416]

While nipping the Sheppard subway bud is an excellent side benefit, it is just that. A side benefit.

Increased capacity and shared infrastructure with the planned SRT replacement are the immediate ones.

This. This is what shows the whole thinking behind the SELRT. Thanks for proving our point. The SELRT was all political for Miller & Co. It wasn't about helping Scarborough. It was about burying the Sheppard Subway forever.

Unfortunately we can't prove their motivation, but the responses to killing the nonsensical SELRT plan by TC supporters gives us a very good idea what Miller & Co. were thinking.

 

[nfitz]

Unfortunately we can't prove their motivation, but the responses to killing the nonsensical SELRT plan by TC supporters gives us a very good idea what Miller & Co. were thinking.

What a bizarre and totally unfounded statement.

Take off the tin-foil hat please.

 

[Dan416]

What a bizarre and totally unfounded statement.

Take off the tin-foil hat please.

Then please explain why SELRT is such a priority to TC, when Sheppard is not a priority for anything?

 

[EnviroTO]

This. This is what shows the whole thinking behind the SELRT. Thanks for proving our point. The SELRT was all political for Miller & Co. It wasn't about helping Scarborough. It was about burying the Sheppard Subway forever.

It was to benefit Scarborough without spending far more than required to provide the required service. Any alternative kills the other. If the Sheppard subway gets built you could say it wasn't about helping Scarborough it was about killing the SELRT forever and wasting billions in the process.