Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[LAz]

You're using sources from years ago before the Eglinton line was even in preliminary design stage. The latest numbers are in the box Graphic Matt posted.

I don't know what else to tell you. You're like somebody who refuses to believe the earth is round. What more evidence do you need?

I can't find his figures. Not even the TTC is gonna say something like that.
http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/eglinton_crosstown_lrt/pdf/faq.pdf
They say just about everything they can say about the stupid idea. But they don't dare mention or discuss speeds of the system. Nice.
You think that's for a reason? They are hiding the stuff deliberately.

It does not make sense that the line will go at almost 30 kms an hour. Just does not make sense.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Read the goddamned Eglinton LRT thread. It's all in there.

 

[Darwinkgo]

It does not make sense that the line will go at almost 30 kms an hour. Just does not make sense.

If the glove does not fit you must acquit!

I call Chewbacca Defense!

 

[kettal]

I can't find his figures. Not even the TTC is gonna say something like that.
http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/eglinton_crosstown_lrt/pdf/faq.pdf
They say just about everything they can say about the stupid idea. But they don't dare mention or discuss speeds of the system. Nice.
You think that's for a reason? They are hiding the stuff deliberately.

His figures are directly out of this TTC document. Page 12.:

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/proj...n_lrt/pdf/2009-11-20_display_panels_part1.pdf

It does not make sense that the line will go at almost 30 kms an hour. Just does not make sense.

It does not make sense that the Earth is round! If it was round wouldn't we fall off it! Just does not make sense.

 

[LAz]

It is outright b.s. that it will go that fast. You should notice that this was just a powerpoint aimed to pump up people, to garnish more support for this stupid endeavor.

If the business diruption on st.clair did not teach you folks a lesson, I don't know what would.



But lets seriously think about this...

According to their powerpoint the trams will go 32 km/h under ground. Then above ground it would be 31km/h. What kind of person would believe such a thing? It would have be totally separated from the street and intersections to acheive such a speed! It outright does not make sense. The only way it can make sense is if it would be totally separate from the street - but it is not gonna be done that way.
Lets think about all the major streets and intersections. Lets think about the minor ones too. And other things. Suppose major snow fall comes. Or other similar stuff. The reduction of speed will be FAR more.

You are the ones who prefer to avoid to listen to reason. You are lobbyist for this stupid idea.

 

[kettal]

Put yourself in my position. This is truly like debating someone who refuses to believe the world is round. Surface LRT is perfectly capable of achieving these speeds. It has happened in the past, and it will happen in the future. There's really no amount of crying on your behalf which will change that. Sorry.

 

[Darwinkgo]

It is outright b.s. that it will go that fast. You should notice that this was just a powerpoint aimed to pump up people, to garnish more support for this stupid endeavor.

Putting falsehoods in items for an open house for a project assessment I am pretty sure is grounds to toss it if someone wanted to at OMB, or in review by the court. Someone would have to stamp a document that went to the Ministry and maybe it is just me, but planners and engineers might know a bit more about this than the average joe...

If the business diruption on st.clair did not teach you folks a lesson, I don't know what would.

For Omelets you need to break some eggs. If the TTC was willing to do that with subway and use cut and cover maybe the cost would be less crazy.

But lets seriously think about this...

According to their powerpoint the trams will go 32 km/h under ground. Then above ground it would be 31km/h. What kind of person would believe such a thing? It would have be totally separated from the street and intersections to acheive such a speed! It outright does not make sense. The only way it can make sense is if it would be totally separate from the street - but it is not gonna be done that way.
Lets think about all the major streets and intersections. Lets think about the minor ones too. And other things. Suppose major snow fall comes. Or other similar stuff. The reduction of speed will be FAR more.

You are the ones who prefer to avoid to listen to reason. You are lobbyist for this stupid idea.

Minor intersections are removed and major ones have close side stations. Since trains will likely have a set dwell time of at least 15 seconds, plus approach time it is pretty easy to sync up the traffic light to reduce 'wait at reds' as much of possible. Of course that does mean not leaving the doors to be opened until the last second before pull off, reducing service in some people's perception.

 

[Justin10000]

It is outright b.s. that it will go that fast. You should notice that this was just a powerpoint aimed to pump up people, to garnish more support for this stupid endeavor.

Not only can LRT travel that fast, but LRT can climb steeper grades, and accelerate faster.

If the business diruption on st.clair did not teach you folks a lesson, I don't know what would.

Subway construction is just as disruptive. Any major project will impact business. It's life, and a good business owner will prepare. There is also more than more evidence that LRT brings in more customers, so busniesses are willing to cope.
.

You are the ones who prefer to avoid to listen to reason. You are lobbyist for this stupid idea.

You're presenting a weak argument against Transit City, that is largely based on assumptions. Not to mention you sound like a child.

 

[rbt]

If the business diruption on st.clair did not teach you folks a lesson, I don't know what would.

It taught me that scope creep (suddenly under-grounding hydro lines and doing other additional work); adding complexity last minute (lots of left hand turn lanes were magically added last minute); and legal action causing contract negotiations to restart (everybody was lined up to work, then had to be rescheduled) will cause havoc with large construction projects.

If you eliminate all of items which existed because "Save our St. Clair" demanded them, you actually find a project that is pretty much on time and on schedule.

Roncesvalle has been moving like clockwork as did many of the other streetcar rebuilds like College and Dundas. None of the difficulties on St. Clair had to do with the construction of the additional 6" height for the ROW.

 

[LAz]

You're presenting a weak argument against Transit City, that is largely based on assumptions. Not to mention you sound like a child.

Naw, itz fun to tawlk lajk dis... one does not get the opportunity to do it often.

At any rate, I am not against all the transit-city proposals.

Subway construction is just as disruptive. Any major project will impact business. It's life, and a good business owner will prepare. There is also more than more evidence that LRT brings in more customers, so busniesses are willing to cope.

Subway construction is a far better investment. When the crosstown LRT goes over capacity, then you'll be screwed. This place in particular is where the most potential is to get people off their cars.

Not only can LRT travel that fast, but LRT can climb steeper grades, and accelerate faster.

I do not doubt that it can travel that fast underground. Above ground I do not accept it, especially considering that TTC said so.

Here is a recent article on LRT speeds on sheppard...

While the TTC can't give a definite trip time for the route, modeling puts the projected average speed of the LRT at 22 or 23 km/h compared with the current bus speed of 17 km/h. The LRT will be able to carry 3,000 people in a single direction at peak time

This was reported in November 2009.

Where you guys get the ideas of 30% faster speeds is beyond me. Perhaps those are the "maximum speeds", but they are not the average speeds. The plans are good for the past, not the future.




How's this for a compromise - the 13 km tunnel section on eglinton turns into a metro, not lrt - right from the get-go.

 

[kettal]

While the TTC can't give a definite trip time for the route, modeling puts the projected average speed of the LRT at 22 or 23 km/h

This number is accurate. FOR SHEPPARD.

Eglinton West is 28-31 km/h.

They have different speeds.

They have different conditions.

Do. you. understand. yet?

 

[LAz]

No, I am stupid and can not comprehend that LRT will be going that fast on eglinton west above ground section, especially in the wintertime.



But this topic is about sheppard. As we can see, the result is a failure.

 

[DavidH]

This number is accurate. FOR SHEPPARD.

The accuracy of the number cannot be determined until the line is in operation.

 

[RedRocket191]

This is true, but "I don't believe it is possible" should not be a valid argument, as some people above you have said.

In my opinion, this is because you can argue it against anything. My friends don't believe in using their green bin. Does that mean that using a green bin is a bad idea? NO. I don't believe that electric trains will solve all the problems people have with diesels. Does that mean it's a bad idea to implement them? NO. LAz does not believe that LRT will work in Toronto. Does that mean it's a bad idea? NO.

 

[Ansem]

This is true, but "I don't believe it is possible" should not be a valid argument, as some people above you have said.

In my opinion, this is because you can argue it against anything. My friends don't believe in using their green bin. Does that mean that using a green bin is a bad idea? NO. I don't believe that electric trains will solve all the problems people have with diesels. Does that mean it's a bad idea to implement them? NO. LAz does not believe that LRT will work in Toronto. Does that mean it's a bad idea? NO.

Transit City is not a bad idea.

-Sheppard East having priority over DRL and subway technology in Scarborough is...

-Sheppard East being considered even before Dufferin, Lawrence, Islington, Wilson/Ellesmere/York Mills,Steeles

-Transit City should complement a COMPLETE subway system. Not replace it and having to tear it down later and build subway later... That`s madness

-Eglinton, Sheppard, DRL, Bloor-Danforth to STC is what this city will ever need for at least a century. Building Transit City around it would have made our transit system one of the very best of the world. Very sad to watch Miller spend over 15 billions on streetcars.... What a freakin waste