Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[kettal]

Actually, if I have my definitions right, the Canada line actually is heavy rail, but just a medium capacity system.


But why does it matter? The definition for a LRT is so loose that you could probably find a way to call CN's trains "LRT." The things that really matter are capacity of the system, grade separation, and overall speed. The definition ranges from a Calgary-style LRT that's just a medium capacity metro using overhead wires, or you could go the TC-approach which is much worse.

I agree. Obsessing over LRT vs HRT is a silly trait of these penis-measuring types. Both of the terms are loosely defined. An HRT can be slower and of lower capacity than an LRT, and vice-versa.

The Eglinton-Airport LRT will have a higher capacity than the Vancouver air link, yet for some reason it puts us behind Vancouver in the all-important measuring contest...

 

[Second_in_pie]

I agree. Obsessing over LRT vs HRT is a silly trait of these penis-measuring types. Both of the terms are very loosely defined.

The Eglinton-Airport LRT will have a higher capacity than the Vancouver air link, yet for some reason it puts us behind Vancouver in the all-important measuring contest...

It's because the Canada line is quite fast. Also, the city has said that once ridership climbs to the point that it's needed, they'll add more trains to the service, instantly giving it 50% more capacity, or even 100%. From the look of things when I was there, there was room for maybe 5 car trains.

There's a couple things about the Eglinton line and the people who protect it that piss me off: People say that the line's going to be fast, but it's just propped up by the subway-grade central portion. Take that out, and the line's overall speed will plummet to regular LRT levels. So what's the problem with just building a subway, which could probably reach out to Jane and Don Mills (big anchors, in case you haven't noticed,) if you invested the extra LRT money into more subway?
People say that it's so people can get a one seat ride across Eglinton, but I have two things to say to that. First of all, we're giving up the very short term gain of no transfers, which'll be quite redundant since services aboveground will be drastically reduced and half the people would have to transfer anyways, for the very long term gain of being able to extend the subway. People now say that the subway'll be stumpified again like Sheppard. I call bullshit on that again, because the only reason we're not getting a Sheppard subway right now is because a couple of guys in council decided that LRTs are cool and can take the loads subways do as rapid transit.
The second thing I have to say is this: where is the logic in ending rapid transit when it could be continued quite easily along a totally undeveloped corridor, who's value would increase exponentially and attract hundreds of millions of dollars in transit-oriented development with a form of real rapid transit, as well as connect to the city's international airport? There's really no excuse for that at all.

 

[Darwinkgo]

It's because the Canada line is quite fast. Also, the city has said that once ridership climbs to the point that it's needed, they'll add more trains to the service, instantly giving it 50% more capacity, or even 100%. From the look of things when I was there, there was room for maybe 5 car trains.

The Canada Line has 50m long platforms underground, and 40m long platforms above ground. Maximum design capacity is 15,000 ppdph, which drops to half on the spurs. It is currently way below that.

The tunnel portion of the Eglinton Line will have 90m stations, more than big enough for a future conversion to very high capacity line in conjunction with expansion of the tunnel or elevated beyond the currently planned confines.

If the entire length of the Eglinton and Sheppard LRTs were being built like the Canada Line, I am sure the same LRT haters would be complaining about small stations, short trains, and lack of vision.

 

[kettal]

The second thing I have to say is this: where is the logic in ending rapid transit when it could be continued quite easily along a totally undeveloped corridor, who's value would increase exponentially and attract hundreds of millions of dollars in transit-oriented development with a form of real rapid transit, as well as connect to the city's international airport? There's really no excuse for that at all.

Can you please stop with the "real rapid transit" rhetoric? Bloor subway has an average speed of 30 km/h. The western surface section of Eglinton will have an average speed of 29 km/h.

So, what's your definition of rapid transit then? 29.5 km/h?

 

[LAz]

The western surface section of Eglinton will have an average speed of 29 km/h.

When it's moving, maybe. When it gets to a red light it will have ZERO. This is why the plan is not good.

If the entire length of the Eglinton and Sheppard LRTs were being built like the Canada Line, I am sure the same LRT haters would be complaining about small stations, short trains, and lack of vision.

Uh, it's underground. That means rapid, as there are fewer stops and no stop-lights/intersections.

The Eglinton-Airport LRT will have a higher capacity than the Vancouver air link, yet for some reason it puts us behind Vancouver in the all-important measuring contest...

From what I know, the transit city LRT stuff is gonna give us a bunch of "trams" all over the city. Trams have lower capacity.

If there is going to be a 13 km tunnel, then I do not see the logic behind not making this section a real metro system.

There are mumbles about potential future conversion - but how is one suppposed to convert the metro to run at grade beyond the point that this tram-way exists west-wards from the tunnel? One can't. Therefore the logical solution is to either build a full metro for the 13 or so km, and then in stage two extend another 10 km or however much long it is to the airport.

I could label you as a cat, but I don't know you so I won't.

I like cats.

 

[GraphicMatt]

When it's moving, maybe. When it gets to a red light it will have ZERO. This is why the plan is not good.

Quote of the year!

 

[kettal]

When it's moving, maybe. When it gets to a red light it will have ZERO. This is why the plan is not good.

The 29 km/h figure takes into account stop lights and stations, and it still comes in at a subway speed. Peak moving speed is obviously going to be higher than 29 km/h. There are very few stoplights and intersections along this part Eglinton West.

From what I know, the transit city LRT stuff is gonna give us a bunch of "trams" all over the city. Trams have lower capacity.

Logical fallacy. This is like saying "some trains run on steam, therefore every train runs on steam."

If there is going to be a 13 km tunnel, then I do not see the logic behind not making this section a real metro system.

The tunnelled portion won't be any better or worse than a subway. It will be a subway for all intents and purposes, and will be treated as such by all, except for stubborn penis measuring snobs.

 

[Voltz]

This forum needs a head bang or a face palm Smilie.....

 

[LAz]

The only point opperating at about 30ish will be the underground portion.

The above ground portion is a disaster.


Also, lets call it a tram, not an lrt. Tram frams the discussion into a more miserable thing, which it is.



So anyways, the above ground portion will go at the speed of 22 km/h, while the average bus goes at some 16-18 km/h. Investing so much for such small increases in speed is just not worth it.

There are very few stoplights and intersections along this part Eglinton West.

There are plenty of stops, red lights, and intersections. Plenty.

Here is alist of the stuff just west of the tunnel's western planned entrance...

* Toronto Pearson International Airport Terminal 1
* Silver Dart Drive/Renforth Drive
* Convair Drive

On Eglinton Avenue:

* Commerce Boulevard (connection to future Mississauga Transitway)
* Renforth Drive
* Rangoon Road
* The East Mall
* Martin Grove Road
* Widdicombe Hill Boulevard/Lloyd Manor Road
* Kipling Avenue
* Wincott Drive/Bemersyde Drive
* Islington Avenue
* Russell Road/Eden Valley Road
* Royal York Road
* Mulham Place
* Scarlett Road
* Jane Street (connection to future Jane LRT line)
* Weston Road (possible future connection to Georgetown GO train line)
* Black Creek Drive



We need something more like this,

Logical fallacy. This is like saying "some trains run on steam, therefore every train runs on steam."

Trams are slower. Period. No debate here. It's a fact. Where you get that the above ground thing will go 30 km/h is beyond me. Take those fairy tales else where, though it would be better to just end them forever.

 

[LAz]

This forum needs a head bang or a face palm Smilie.....

 

[GraphicMatt]

So anyways, the above ground portion will go at the speed of 22 km/h, while the average bus goes at some 16-18 km/h. Investing so much for such small increases in speed is just not worth it.

You're: a) talking about this transit line in the wrong thread; b) totally wrong on the speed of the line; c) seem to have no idea what the capacity of these LRTs will be (hint: it's a lot!).

Some pre-emptive strikes: the TC lines will use all-door boarding and be proof of payment, too.

 

[kettal]

The only point opperating at about 30ish will be the underground portion...

Trams are slower. Period. No debate here. It's a fact. Where you get that the above ground thing will go 30 km/h is beyond me. Take those fairy tales else where, though it would be better to just end them forever.

There are many many LRTs in the world whose speed surpasses 30 km/h. What's so hard to believe?

 

[LAz]

What's so hard to believe?

What is hard to beleive is pretty much anything that is said from the city planners. The crosstown tram is a tram. I imagine it as any ol' toronto street-car. Maybe that is wrong, but it is a good framework when thinking about this insanity that is supposedly gonna go under ground AND above ground. Like what kind of stupid thing is that? Under and OVER? No.

Existing bus service on Eglinton averages 16 to 18 kilometres per hour, while the Bloor-Danforth subway averages 32 kilometres an hour.

The Eglinton LRT won't be as fast as a subway. One person who was at the briefing said TTC officials estimate the speed of the Eglinton LRT at 22 kilometres an hour.

http://www.thestar.com/article/475187


Add in some good snow, rain, and hazardous weather conditions.

seem to have no idea what the capacity of these LRTs will be

It's gonna be less than a metro, and it's gonna be two cars at the most.




edit:

some more,

In Paris, I remember the T3 tramway with excellent signal priority seemed noticably slower than the metrop.

Above ground trams are ALWAYS slower. No question about it.
http://stevemunro.ca/?p=961


edit2:

Too slow. While buses average 17 km/h and subways average 30 km/h, the LRTs will average 23 km/h. The Transit City proposal won't provide rapid transit across northern Toronto and won't be a significant improvement over the buses for local travel either.

http://www.saveoursubways.com/facts

 

[LAz]

They built the system in kolm when it was a smaller city. At any rate, their stuff looks more like the stuff in calgary, which is very different from the tram option that we are taking. If you compare their city and transit city you would see that they have many more underground lines.
In kolm, many lines average in their low 20s km/h. Further, if they were in our position they would take the metro option.

Their above ground is significantly slower than underground - if it is not completely separated from the road and whatnot.


Some 30km/h is fine, underground. I dont' see it above ground on eglinton, unless if they make it completely elevated.


edit: someone deleted their post eh?



edit2:

You're not very good at debating are you? You're just throwing a lot of random thoughts and hoping one sticks, all while selectively disbelieving whatever doesn't suit your rants.

I can just imagine you on a trip to Köln. Do you jump around in trams which average above 30 km/h and tell everybody inside that this is impossible, a tram cannot possibly go this fast?

And do you go into the drivers booth and tell the driver that he is breaking the laws of physics? Then you run to city hall and tell them how silly they are for having LRT lines which go both through tunnels and above ground?

 

[kettal]

You're using sources from years ago before the Eglinton line was even in preliminary design stage. The latest numbers are in the box Graphic Matt posted.

I don't know what else to tell you. You're like somebody who refuses to believe the earth is round. What more evidence do you need?