Transit City Plan

[11th]

If they can save some money for Sheppard then I think completing the section from Yonge to Spadina is a good use of funds. The lines ridership will greatly increase when the Spadina extension is complete, even Sheppard's biggest critics acknowledge that. Extending 2 stations east will save very little time and still require an additional transfer onto a bus at Yonge.

Both are needed but there's no money, and people want something on Sheppard East (east of Victria Park) now. You'll have to choose between easing a bottleneck (404), or connecting the obvious. Tough choice, and somehow Don Mills to Victoria Park as a subway costs 1billion dollars. Makes you wonder if they should've kept the TBM digging to Victoria Park (or Kennedy) when they were building the line.

 

[ssiguy2]

I took a look at the summary of what councillors voted and the ridings they represented. Needless to say that the closer you get to the core the higher the support for at grade LRT.
I find that quite interesting. Funny, how the areas that already have subway service nearby are also the ones who are more supportive of LRT at grade. The areas in mid Toronto also endorsed the Eglinton crosstown LRT BUT the section where they reside would be tunneled. I agree with tunneling in the Eglinton Uptown section but there is quite a bit of hypocracy involved here. Seems that the areas that already, or will shortly have, subway service are the same people who support LRT in the rest of the city. Seems that what is dood for other parts of the city isn't quite good enough for the downtown/inner city liberals. It seems they are more than willing to tell people they will be well served by LRT but not willing to toleate it themselves.
It's pretty damn easy to tell people to accept a "compromiser" when you yourselves are not the ones doing the compromising.
I wonder how all these people {and councillors} would fell it Ford turned around and said that he would agree to an all at grade LRT system but due to being fair to all taxpayers dedided that the entire stretch of Eglinton had to be at grade as well?
Then we would really see if the councillors in the city who support LRT as a good compromise would be willing to put their money where their mouths are if the savings resulted in building the entire TC system. Somehow I just don't see those same councillors and touchy-feely transit supporting urban dwellers quite as receptive. The entire TC system could be built if they saved the massive amount needed to tunnel the Eglinton section. If they were really as concerned about serving as many people as possible then they would have no trepedations but somehow I don't see them going along.
It so damn easy telling everyone else how having an LRT down the middle of the road, cutting off businesses, slowing traffic, making left hand turns nearly impossible, stopping at most lights, and having stops every 2 to 3 blocks will be workable, rapid, and not impede traffic when you are asking others to do it.
That kind of litmus test would really show how strongly the City and it's citizens are willing to compromise.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Sorry, the inner city liberals have been suffering overcrowded Yonge (like, trying to get on a subway at Dundas Station during the rush?) and streetcar lines for awhile now - if the intent is truly to screw Scarborough, David Miller would have suggested DRL instead - the southern portion only, I might add, instead of a plan that sits on Eglinton at the southern most point.

AoD

 

[GraphicMatt]

Adam Vaughan called into Jerry Agar's show today and made it sound like a Sheppard Subway extension to Victoria Park would end up as part of the light rail plan. It'll be interesting to see if Metrolinx goes for it - there could be issues with financing.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

From CP24:

Province will 'abide by will of council' on transit
http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20120209/120209_ford_ttc/20120209/?hub=CP24Home

AoD

 

[Tulse]

Sorry, the inner city liberals have been suffering overcrowded Yonge (like, trying to get on a subway at Dundas Station during the rush?) and streetcar lines for awhile now - if the intent is truly to screw Scarborough, David Miller would have suggested DRL instead - the southern portion only, I might add, instead of a plan that sits on Eglinton at the southern most point.

It's also funny that all the "suburban" advocates seem to forget that Ford tried to screw over Finch with his plan. Apparently some suburbs are more equal than others...

 

[voxpopulicosmicum]

I took a look at the summary of what councillors voted and the ridings they represented. Needless to say that the closer you get to the core the higher the support for at grade LRT.
I find that quite interesting. Funny, how the areas that already have subway service nearby are also the ones who are more supportive of LRT at grade. The areas in mid Toronto also endorsed the Eglinton crosstown LRT BUT the section where they reside would be tunneled. I agree with tunneling in the Eglinton Uptown section but there is quite a bit of hypocracy involved here. Seems that the areas that already, or will shortly have, subway service are the same people who support LRT in the rest of the city. Seems that what is dood for other parts of the city isn't quite good enough for the downtown/inner city liberals. It seems they are more than willing to tell people they will be well served by LRT but not willing to toleate it themselves.
It's pretty damn easy to tell people to accept a "compromiser" when you yourselves are not the ones doing the compromising.
I wonder how all these people {and councillors} would fell it Ford turned around and said that he would agree to an all at grade LRT system but due to being fair to all taxpayers dedided that the entire stretch of Eglinton had to be at grade as well?
Then we would really see if the councillors in the city who support LRT as a good compromise would be willing to put their money where their mouths are if the savings resulted in building the entire TC system. Somehow I just don't see those same councillors and touchy-feely transit supporting urban dwellers quite as receptive. The entire TC system could be built if they saved the massive amount needed to tunnel the Eglinton section. If they were really as concerned about serving as many people as possible then they would have no trepedations but somehow I don't see them going along.
It so damn easy telling everyone else how having an LRT down the middle of the road, cutting off businesses, slowing traffic, making left hand turns nearly impossible, stopping at most lights, and having stops every 2 to 3 blocks will be workable, rapid, and not impede traffic when you are asking others to do it.
That kind of litmus test would really show how strongly the City and it's citizens are willing to compromise.

I've frequently found your posts interesting, especially when DF's monorail fantasy first came to light, but this one right here is a pretty basic recitation of the Ford Nation talking points that you should be ashamed to parrot.

I could begin by asking why you can't see the obvious differences between east-of-Laird roadway allowances and built form relative to those in the Keele-Laird corridor. Or I could question why you think it is better to over-serve one suburban stretch at the expense of adequately serving two others.

But this was all done yesterday in council, as well as hundreds of times over in this thread, and dozens of times in reports by experts over the years. As such, I am left with very few options other than to question your judgement and the motivation behind all of your posts. Until now, I have always considered you an interesting, quirky monorail fetishist. The above-quoted post seems deliberately obtuse, given the thorough previous analysis and refutation of the arguments it contains.

Of course, you have just as much right as any of us to be here and make whatever arguments you wish. But if this is going to be the quality of thought that you are presenting, I'm no longer going to pay attention.

 

[BMO]

I took a look at the summary of what councillors voted and the ridings they represented. Needless to say that the closer you get to the core the higher the support for at grade LRT.
I find that quite interesting. Funny, how the areas that already have subway service nearby are also the ones who are more supportive of LRT at grade. The areas in mid Toronto also endorsed the Eglinton crosstown LRT BUT the section where they reside would be tunneled. I agree with tunneling in the Eglinton Uptown section but there is quite a bit of hypocracy involved here. Seems that the areas that already, or will shortly have, subway service are the same people who support LRT in the rest of the city. Seems that what is dood for other parts of the city isn't quite good enough for the downtown/inner city liberals. It seems they are more than willing to tell people they will be well served by LRT but not willing to toleate it themselves.
It's pretty damn easy to tell people to accept a "compromiser" when you yourselves are not the ones doing the compromising.
I wonder how all these people {and councillors} would fell it Ford turned around and said that he would agree to an all at grade LRT system but due to being fair to all taxpayers dedided that the entire stretch of Eglinton had to be at grade as well?
Then we would really see if the councillors in the city who support LRT as a good compromise would be willing to put their money where their mouths are if the savings resulted in building the entire TC system. Somehow I just don't see those same councillors and touchy-feely transit supporting urban dwellers quite as receptive. The entire TC system could be built if they saved the massive amount needed to tunnel the Eglinton section. If they were really as concerned about serving as many people as possible then they would have no trepedations but somehow I don't see them going along.
It so damn easy telling everyone else how having an LRT down the middle of the road, cutting off businesses, slowing traffic, making left hand turns nearly impossible, stopping at most lights, and having stops every 2 to 3 blocks will be workable, rapid, and not impede traffic when you are asking others to do it.
That kind of litmus test would really show how strongly the City and it's citizens are willing to compromise.

I completely agree with you ssiguy2. It's easy to say, "hey why are we spending more to dig a tunnel over there! I want to save $1.5B" when you already have an efficient and very fast means of transportation nearby. If you ignore the LRT taking up too much space through uptown Eglinton, would the LRTistas still support LRT going through at-grade, with full priority in the middle section of the line? (speaking strictly from a transit travel/ speed point of view). I don't think they would.

Edit: I don't necessary have anything against LRT, I just have something against providing a local service for a route that is meant to be crosstown. if you proposed complete grade serparation in the east, I would support it (doesn't have to be subway)

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Err, no offense, but nobody proposed a subway for St. Clair, screamed about the lack of one along Spadina or Queen's Quay, as suboptimal as some of these cases might have been (and certainly, the local councillors who are for LRT voted for them, even against substantial local opposition - remember SOS?) And why pick and choose the criteria? No one in the right mind would have proposed LRT on its own ROW on the ground level along stretches of a roadway that wasn't wide enough to accommodate such, suburban or otherwise.

AoD

 

[Paleo]

For me, I acutally wanted the sheppard subway extended to the zoo. That would make a straight line and while create a transfer, generate even more riders.

LOL. Now we're in the land of make believe. The zoo couldn't even support an express bus from STC and now we have people talking about subways there... I know there are some around here who say a $1 billion LRT line to the zoo is massive waste, I wonder what they'd say about a subway that ran all the way out there.

If they can save some money for Sheppard then I think completing the section from Yonge to Spadina is a good use of funds. The lines ridership will greatly increase when the Spadina extension is complete, even Sheppard's biggest critics acknowledge that.

You don't even live here, what do you know? 196 express bus between Spadina and Yonge runs once every 5 minutes and there's plenty of spare capacity (empty seats). 95% of the people coming from the university leave the bus at the Spadina line to go south on the subway. They do not go east. The bus is equally deserted when traveling in the other direction from Yonge.

 

[BurlOak]

dunkalunk:

No. It's studying the future possibility of such. Stintz item 3a:

5. Toronto City Council authorize the Toronto Transit Commission to direct staff to enter into discussions with Metrolinx to study the future feasibility of the following transit projects:
- Extension of the TTC Sheppard Subway line westward from the current Sheppard Station to the current Downsview Station, thereby relieving ridership pressure off of the eastern portion of the Yonge-University-Spadina Subway line.
- Extension of the Sheppard LRT to end at the Toronto Zoo.
- Extension of the TTC Bloor-Danforth Subway line from Kennedy Subway Station north-eastward to the Scarborough Town Centre.
- Extension of the Eglinton Crosstown line from Jane to Pearson Airport including a study of its alignment.
- The construction of a Downtown Relief Line.

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2012.CC17.1

AoD

My understanding is that anything it the "to be studied" list was just used to get a few votes and there is no real intention of acting on any of it. Some of them were in phase 2 or 3 anyways and the studying does not really change anything as they will get to it when funding becomes available.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

More or less, though in this case I don't see how votes would be gained by these particular items.

AoD

 

[BurlOak]

I took a look at the summary of what councillors voted and the ridings they represented. Needless to say that the closer you get to the core the higher the support for at grade LRT.
I find that quite interesting. Funny, how the areas that already have subway service nearby are also the ones who are more supportive of LRT at grade. The areas in mid Toronto also endorsed the Eglinton crosstown LRT BUT the section where they reside would be tunneled. I agree with tunneling in the Eglinton Uptown section but there is quite a bit of hypocracy involved here. Seems that the areas that already, or will shortly have, subway service are the same people who support LRT in the rest of the city. Seems that what is dood for other parts of the city isn't quite good enough for the downtown/inner city liberals. It seems they are more than willing to tell people they will be well served by LRT but not willing to toleate it themselves.
It's pretty damn easy to tell people to accept a "compromiser" when you yourselves are not the ones doing the compromising.
I wonder how all these people {and councillors} would fell it Ford turned around and said that he would agree to an all at grade LRT system but due to being fair to all taxpayers dedided that the entire stretch of Eglinton had to be at grade as well?
Then we would really see if the councillors in the city who support LRT as a good compromise would be willing to put their money where their mouths are if the savings resulted in building the entire TC system. Somehow I just don't see those same councillors and touchy-feely transit supporting urban dwellers quite as receptive. The entire TC system could be built if they saved the massive amount needed to tunnel the Eglinton section. If they were really as concerned about serving as many people as possible then they would have no trepedations but somehow I don't see them going along.
It so damn easy telling everyone else how having an LRT down the middle of the road, cutting off businesses, slowing traffic, making left hand turns nearly impossible, stopping at most lights, and having stops every 2 to 3 blocks will be workable, rapid, and not impede traffic when you are asking others to do it.
That kind of litmus test would really show how strongly the City and it's citizens are willing to compromise.

I agree that there is hypocrisy in the voting of some Councillors. The dilemma was that both Fords plan and the Transit City plan for Eglinton had problems. Forcing them to choose between one or the other was the key to getting Transit City reinstated. I would guess that Ford would have compromised if an elevated proposal was tabled. I thought that Stinz would have spent the past year trying to come up an alternative plan that was acceptable to many Councillors, instead of just getting trying to achieve a bare majority.

I think the province will be reluctant to fund the projects, and happily pocket the money, when Council, has an opposite view to the Mayor and TTC Council – since they do have to work with the TTC.

 

[Tulse]

I agree that there is hypocrisy in the voting of some Councillors.

So what do you call the councillors who voted against any new Finch transit?

I thought that Stinz would have spent the past year trying to come up an alternative plan that was acceptable to many Councillors, instead of just getting trying to achieve a bare majority.

That was hardly a "bare" majority, and you'd think that Ford, as mayor, would have come up with a compromise plan, rather than try to ram a fiscal fantasy down the throats of council. Stintz did her damnedest to placate Ford, and it was only when it was clear he was going to be completely intransigent that she went around him.

I think the province will be reluctant to fund the projects, and happily pocket the money, when Council, has an opposite view to the Mayor and TTC Council – since they do have to work with the TTC.

Nope:

McGuinty openly contradicted Ford’s assertion that he was “very confident” the province would push ahead with the subway plan despite the Wednesday vote by Toronto Council.

“I’ve also been very clear with the mayor from day one. At the time the memorandum of understanding was entered into, there was a specific provision that he’s got to seek the support of the council,” McGuinty said Thursday.

And McGuinty said he drove home that message again in a phone call with the mayor just last week.

“He reached out to me just last Friday. I confirmed once again that I needed the approval of the council. Should he receive that, great, we’re off to the races,” he said.

“Should he not receive that, I told him, should council decide they wish to pursue another direction, that is something I feel obligated to consider,” the Premier told reporters after a lunch speech in Ottawa.

 

[BMO]

Interesting response from my councillor:

Dear Brandon,



Thank you for your e-mail about the future of public transit in Toronto. As a user of subways, busses and street cars, I can assure you that I know some of the challenges we face in getting around in the city.



There was widespread confusion about what was voted on last night in council. The press would have everyone believe that we stopped Mayor Ford's subway plans. That is not correct. The motions passed by myself and my colleagues include a firm commitment to the Sheppard Subway Line, a key part of Mayor Ford's 2010 campaign platform. In fact, my motion affirmed a $650 million commitment to this project, which is the maximum allowable under a Toronto-Ontario funding agreement. We also are to receive another $330 million from the federal government. Therefore, we have $1 billion to start this important project.



What was altered last night was a small change in the length of tunnel being created for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT. This section of Scarborough will now be an elevated LRT or at grade. It will not impede traffic or take up laneways. It freed up over $1.7 billion so we can build the Sheppard Subway and give residents of Ward 10 the transit options they need. It is not Transit City and not "another St. Clair."



Please understand that this was in no way a vote against the mayor. The media likes conflict and that is what they presented. We are in better shape now than ever to meet the dreams of residents of Ward 10 and have an east-west subway system running through it.



Once again, thank you for your note and please stay in touch.





Sincerely,



Councillor James Pasternak

Ward 10, York Centre

416-392-1371 councillor_pasternak@toronto.ca

www.jamespasternak.ca