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Transit City Plan

Which transit plan do you prefer?

  • Transit City

    Votes: 95 79.2%

  • Ford City

    Votes: 25 20.8%
  • Total voters
    120
kkgg7 said:
2km is not a lot to walk once in a while when you are in the walking mood. yet if one has to walk that much to get to subway everyday, it is still a bit far.
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A 2km walk would cause most people to drive. How many people walk 2km to get to their local GO station?

In the urban parts of many GO lines they seem to have stations about 2km apart. Do they publish numbers about how people get to their station and where they came from (distance travelled to get there?).
 
rfid said:
On the topic of cost, how do other cities accumulate the debt to build subways? Does the city or transit authority have the ability to issues bonds like the MTA? New York is finally building their Second Avenue subway line right in Manhattan.
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In North America, they generally don't build subways without significant federal funding.

Montreal has built very little over the last 40 years. Ditto for Toronto.

New York has 2 new stations over 70 years and closed just as many.

Chicago has difficulty maintaining their system to the point where bringing the Blue Line back up to speed was a very large $ expenditure.

Washington received about 90% of its funding from the federal government. I believe it's 50/50 for extensions currently under way with the municipal portion being special taxes and a highway toll (IIRC, 16 cents per mile).

Vancouver does okay and a large chunk of their funding comes from special taxes (about a 10 cent per litre gas tax). Perhaps they have transit dedicated property tax revenue as well?


Toronto over the last decade is somewhat unique in the state paying for about 80km of new and improved transit our of general revenues; the vast majority of which is still under construction.

We would do well with a transit capital stream of about $3.5B per annum which is what Metrolinx's and TTCs capital expenditures are currently. Spadina Line, Georgetown corridor, Union Station, Eglinton, rolling stock renewal/storage yards, and SOGR work like re-rounding the Yonge tunnel north of Eglinton and replacing 50 year old signal systems.
 
The Finch West LRT was to have started construction by 2011. With the construction on the Spadina Subway extension ongoing, would they be able to alter the plans now to include the underground LRT terminal and subtract the surface bus bays to actually start on the Finch West LRT?
 
blacktrojan3921 said:
I find that that trying to mantain two different forms of transportation simultaneously will cost a hell of a lot in the long run and will be extremly hard to pay for unless taxes are raised and there be some budget cuts in other sectors, which I find will not likely happen.
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We are eliminating the technology on the SRT and adding the LRT - thus we are keeping the number of types of transit the same.
 
rbt said:
In North America, they generally don't build subways without significant federal funding.

Montreal has built very little over the last 40 years.
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Something very odd about the numbers in this post. 40 years ago Montreal had 25 Metro stations. Now it has 68. Most of the Montreal's metro was built in the last 40 years.

rbt said:
Toronto over the last decade is somewhat unique in the state paying for about 80km of new and improved transit our of general revenues; the vast majority of which is still under construction.
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What 80 km of new/improved transit have we built out of general revenues since 2002? Only thing that comes to mind is the Spadina Extension, where over 80% of the money is coming from other governments.
 
rfid said:
Perhaps fantasy subway maps have some basis in the psychological aspect of the system. Whereas our numbers from a purely usage based standpoint dictate build an LRT along a particular corridor. However, if you think like a transit user, wouldn't it make sense to connect Sheppard to Downsview, allowing east GTA users to get to York University or other employment districts?
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I agree, but convenience is a perk, and the city never has the money for those items. Ironically, convenience is a factor when people decide to use transit or not.

rfid said:
When the Sheppard subway opened, the experts believed that people would take an express bus along Finch to Don Mills. The route did so poorly, they boosted express bus service along Finch to Finch Station instead via the 199.
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For one, taking the Finch-Don Mills route adds another transfer. Second, people can more than likely get a seat if they get on the train at Finch, not so at Sheppard (esp. at rush hours). Then, there's not really time savings by taking Finch-Don Mills. If the terminus of the Sheppard subway is at Warden or Kennedy, couple with Yonge being extended past Finch, then the rerouting might be a success.
 
If they can save some money for Sheppard then I think completing the section from Yonge to Spadina is a good use of funds. The lines ridership will greatly increase when the Spadina extension is complete, even Sheppard's biggest critics acknowledge that. Extending 2 stations east will save very little time and still require an additional transfer onto a bus at Yonge. Extending it to Spadina gets rid of an unneccesary transfer. Atleast continuing it to Spadina makes it a more useable line and at 12 km will no longer be a stubway but a very useable northern rapid transit corridor. Atleast in this section I think subway is both a more functional and yes cost effective option. The section from DM to SRT can be LRT but the Spadina to Yonge section should be a subway priority.
There are several things here that would make any true "fiscal conservative" toss his lunch.
First, tunneling the line from Kennedy to DM {regardless of the technology} is an obscene waste of funds especially when elevating thru a commercial corridor is practical but for some unknown reason heresy in Toronto.
Second, building the Finch East corridor with such ridiculous stop spacing and a lack of under/overpasses is also a waste as that one billion bucks will not result in a much faster commute. Let's face it, most people on the Finch line will be heading straight to Spadina........they want to get there as fast, comfortably, and affordably as possible.
Third, Tearing up the SRT to simply replace in with another technology at the cost of $1.2 billion and closing it for 4 years is lunacy. They should upgrade the corridor, use the heating mechanisms available and transfer over to the new MK111 trains. Not only would this save huge amounts much less reno costs but elevating to DM would save a small fortune. It would actually be cheaper to build than the LRT as proposed but also would be a hell of a lot cheaper to run as it would be grade-separated and therefore automated. It would also have twice the capacity of the current LRT proposal as it can run every 90 second as opposed to any at grade system which basically as a per-direction capacity of about every 3 minutes. Also they could extend the SkyTrain at roughly the same cost as Vancouver's new Evergreen Line at about $150 million per km and that would be enough to take it to Pearson.
Seeing Toronto is also saying they have only a certain amount of money to build rapid transit with why not employ a radical solution........cheap in a little money yourself. Despite all Toronto's bitching, no other city on the planet has a senior level of government paying 100% the cost of new rapid transit. I have always found it amazing how Toronto bitches and whines about always having to run to Queen's Park for permission to do something but at the same time always demanding Queen's Park pick up 100% of the cost of their transit infrastructure.
 
nfitz said:
Something very odd about the numbers in this post. 40 years ago Montreal had 25 Metro stations. Now it has 68. Most of the Montreal's metro was built in the last 40 years.
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Typo, sorry. I meant to hit 3 not 4. 1981. Blue line has been built since then, of course. As has a small addition to the Orange line. I believe it all came from Quebec general revenues. So, one station every 2 years, and I count them as one of the most successful North American cities at building transit recently.


What 80 km of new/improved transit have we built out of general revenues since 2002? Only thing that comes to mind is the Spadina Extension, where over 80% of the money is coming from other governments.
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Yes, funding from general revenues from other governments (the province specifically for most) building things in Toronto (greater area) under the direction of City or Regional government.


The Spadina Line is well into construction, Eglinton which has TBM launch points built, Georgetown corridor is well into construction.

I also include the Union Station corridor which has is getting track additions, signaling upgrades, and a massive overhaul to the station itself.

The other few km I count partial points for various GO grade separations and track additions which do have a direct impact on service they can offer and can be fairly sizable invesments.


I did not include the Barrie line extension, Kitchener/Waterloo service (really a trial thing), or Niagara Region service (kinda touristy), St. Clair (based on Globe and Mail article), VIVA, or the GO BRT within Mississauga, or Bramptons Zum.

If you've ridden the Silver line in Boston you will know that some cities make a big deal out of BRT like VIVA, the GO Transitway, and Zum. Then again, some places make a big deal out of trains that run 4 times an hour for their metro.
 
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bigdaddyhame said:
blacktrojan3921, how can you be both "fiscally conservative" and be pro-subways per Rob Ford's "vision"?
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If by "fiscally conservative" they mean reduction in overall spending, maybe they're assuming there'd be no need to do upgrades (at-grade to grade-seperated) in the future (which will definitely cost more than if it's done in 2012) if we bite the bullet now.
 
dunkalunk:

No. It's studying the future possibility of such. Stintz item 3a:

5. Toronto City Council authorize the Toronto Transit Commission to direct staff to enter into discussions with Metrolinx to study the future feasibility of the following transit projects:
- Extension of the TTC Sheppard Subway line westward from the current Sheppard Station to the current Downsview Station, thereby relieving ridership pressure off of the eastern portion of the Yonge-University-Spadina Subway line.
- Extension of the Sheppard LRT to end at the Toronto Zoo.
- Extension of the TTC Bloor-Danforth Subway line from Kennedy Subway Station north-eastward to the Scarborough Town Centre.
- Extension of the Eglinton Crosstown line from Jane to Pearson Airport including a study of its alignment.
- The construction of a Downtown Relief Line.

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2012.CC17.1

AoD
 
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