Transit City Plan

[lafard]

In reality it's starting to sound like there is going to be way more activism directed towards saving Eglinton so that's probably where the money will end up going. The SRT conversion is fairly likely to proceed as well as it's grade separated all the way to Malvern and thus acceptable to the Ford administration. The TTC will almost certainly favour extending the line ove converting an existing route/making an alternative route to the same endpoint. Finch LRT is a question mark, as is a Sheppard LRT while there is no money for any useful subway extension. Any leftover money would probably be going towards extending the grade-separated segment of Eglinton.

This is not actually that bad an outcome. In the longer term, if we get a DRL underway 2015-2020, and a couple LRT lines thrown in post-Ford we're in pretty good shape actually, esp. if they're shovel-ready at the next election.

 

[golodhendil]

I think it's sad that we have such a "can't do" attitude that we think it's impossible.

Madrid is almost singularly unique in the developed world in being able to execute the magnitude and rate of metro expansion that it saw. Even in a place like Hong Kong, where the Executive can effectively ignore any dissenting opinion and exercise its will because it is assured support in the semi-democratic Legislature, it takes a decade to plan, design, approve and build metro lines of even just a few km.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Seems fitting that after 108 pages we descend into cartoon porn.

 

[adeel]

Transit newb here...been following this thread but im trying to figure out what my position on this issue is

What is the estimated total cost of doing the complete Sheppard subway connected to STC, extension of B-D subway to STC and eglinton done as a subway (though I see eglinton is proposed for LRT)? That would be the dream I guess but Im wondering what it would cost.

Please dont flame =)

 

[Paleo]

I always feel so embarrassed for you when I read your posts.

Duh, of course the trips to one mall are going to be less than all total trips to all workplaces in the entire city, or all total students going to all schools. Total shopping trips, though, are far higher than you think they are. How many students take transit on an August weekend? Oh, right, off-peak shopping trips don't count as transit trips.

Do you honestly think a Danforth extension to STC would be just for the mall and not for all the people living and working there or the dozen bus routes that pour into it? Do you think that there's 20 more malls somewhere that need subways running to them? A transit system that avoids malls is probably doomed to failure, which is why transit systems do not avoid malls.

It's not like there's 20 more regional malls in the city that need subways running to them, by the way. There already is a 'rapid transit' line going to STC that's falling apart and they're proposing to spend a few billion dollars revamping the SRT, so we're connecting the mall whether you like it or not. A "massive subway" extension could be cheaper and would help far more people then what is currently planned, though. A Bloor extension to East Mall should go one more stop to Sherway, which might be the regional mall in the GTA with the worst transit connections (or Vaughan Mills, though the difference is relative). So, there's an extension to STC that is happening in some form either way, and a single station extension to Sherway beyond what is the absolute minimum necessary. WOW, THAT'S SO MUCH EXPANSION TO MALLS! Also, the 905 transit systems revolve around malls or will be improving service on corridors that have malls on them. That's pretty much it as far as connecting malls goes, because they already are connected. Nothing is compromised, and there are no negatives...only substantial benefits.

Danforth to STC makes sense in that it's in the grey zone between LRT and HRT. Don't be under any illusions though. STC is not the destination for the overwhelming majority of people using any hypothetical Danforth extension. Just like Sheppard users, most want to head to the core. The only difference is that there are about 3-4 times the number of people that would use it compared to a complete Sheppard.

I was talking more about the gungho attitude that you and many other Sheppard crazies hold that Sheppard subway to STC only makes sense while ignoring any reality that it would be a black hole in the city budget for generations to come.

Even ignoring that demand along Sheppard is nowhere remotely close to subway requirements, "peak" periods at malls occur at times where 'transit that doesn't have the mega capacity or expense of subways' could easily handle it.

There's also the question of the types of jobs at suburban malls like this. How many M-F 9-5 jobs are there? How many are shift jobs that have smaller numbers of employees moving in and out at several points during the day throughout the entire week?

The former type in large concentrations is efficient to serve via high capacity mass transit. The latter type doesn't place nearly the same amount of peak stress on the transit system even if the absolute number of jobs were the same compared to downtown.

Transit newb here...been following this thread but im trying to figure out what my position on this issue is

What is the estimated total cost of doing the complete Sheppard subway connected to STC, extension of B-D subway to STC and eglinton done as a subway (though I see eglinton is proposed for LRT)? That would be the dream I guess but Im wondering what it would cost.

Please dont flame =)

A complete Sheppard subway from Downsview to STC is a good bet to cost a lot. You can do some mathematical guess work.

The current 6.5km section sees around 4,000 passengers in its busiest hour and loses $10 million a year.

The proposed section west of Yonge currently has bus service for around 1,500 passengers per hour during peak and the section east of Don Mills is projected for 3,000 passengers at peak IIRC. It would about triple the length of the line.

$50 million from the city budget each year maybe? For the next three generations? Possibly longer?

 

[The Mad Navigator]

I think it's sad that we have such a "can't do" attitude that we think it's impossible.

If anything, we should be happy that Ford wants to get this done FAST and will push for it to get done quickly. Things in this country take way too long to build. Or is it just in Ontario? Either way, it's a problem.

Am I talking to you? No, so zip it, Pie-zano.

 

[Asterix]

What is the estimated total cost of doing the complete Sheppard subway connected to STC, extension of B-D subway to STC and eglinton done as a subway (though I see eglinton is proposed for LRT)? That would be the dream I guess but Im wondering what it would cost.

Paleo answered the operating cost, but I think you are asking about the capital cost.

General ballpark costs for subway would be about $300 million per km. More if you are having to tunnel under heavily built-up areas with extensive existing underground infrastructure (extreme case being the DRL through downtown), less if you are cut-and-covering through fields in Vaughan.

Eglinton underground portion would be similar cost HRT or LRT, although that would be for trains shorter than the six car trains currently used on YUS and Bloor-Danforth. The advantage of the LRT option though is that once leaving underground and running in median, costs will only be about 1/4 to 1/3 of subway.

Subway stations would be on the order of $100 million (although that would be less if you were just putting in a minimal station in a trench like Summerhill). Connections with existing lines would add to your costs.

 

[EnviroTO]

The can't do attitude is awful. I believe! I have $20 for the guy that builds me a DRL. That's twenty big ones. Dufferin to Pape station will do.

In reality it's starting to sound like there is going to be way more activism directed towards saving Eglinton so that's probably where the money will end up going.

Ford will not built any part of the Eglinton line above ground so reaching Leslie or Don Mills which would be required to eliminate the overlapping bus routes on Eglinton would be a serious problem. The Eglinton LRT tunnel is designed to have the LRT arrive in the middle of the street near Black Creek and near Leslie. The additional cost to change only the piece from Keele to Jane and from Laird to Don Mills would be significant since crossing river valleys is part of the most expensive aspects of subway building after station creation (3 new underground / grade-separated stations are required as well at Weston, Jane, and Leslie). Where will the money come from.

Transit City is what it is because of cost and expected demand. It wasn't designed with the assumption of having money now to build the ideal system for 2060. There is no way to deliver the already cut back 2020 Eglinton line, the mandatory replacement of the SRT, and a Sheppard subway by 2020 with the money available because cancelling the Finch West LRT and Sheppard East LRT doesn't yield enough funds. Really the Eglinton LRT (lower capacity project on a route with greater predicted demand) needs to be cancelled to built a Sheppard subway (higher capacity project on a route with lesser predicted demand) in order to build the Sheppard subway. The extended Sheppard Line would cause the Yonge line to be over capacity from King to Sheppard during rush hour and without the Eglinton LRT there would be no way for people east of Yonge to get over to the underutilized University line easily.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

The can't do attitude is awful. I believe! I have $20 for the guy that builds me a DRL. That's twenty big ones. Dufferin to Pape station will do.

Good to know you live in reality too.

 

[rbt]

Madrid is almost singularly unique in the developed world in being able to execute the magnitude and rate of metro expansion that it saw. Even in a place like Hong Kong, where the Executive can effectively ignore any dissenting opinion and exercise its will because it is assured support in the semi-democratic Legislature, it takes a decade to plan, design, approve and build metro lines of even just a few km.

They weren't expanding that quickly at the beginning of their process either.

It took them a decade to refine the current process and get a full workforce trained on it in order to make it successful.

Shanghai is a similar story. Their first couple of lines were pretty sloppy but after the workforce had 10 years of experience things have started to click.


If you want Toronto to undergo a rapid expansion, plan to spend the first 10 years learning and growing a dedicated workforce (Spadina has been good for this), get dedicated reliable funding (we have none of this), standardize as much as possible (single tunnel design, single station design, etc.), have Metrolinx put together a couple dozen BCAs for various 2 station extensions (and prioritize well in advance), and go from there by taking soil samples for the first 5 on the list and doing preliminary engineering.

TTC has shown with streetcar track replacement that a continuous program is useful. Costs dropped by 30% between the 90's when they started and today, despite the increase price of materials, fuel, labour, etc. The time required dropped significantly as well.

 

[gweed123]

They weren't expanding that quickly at the beginning of their process either.

It took them a decade to refine the current process and get a full workforce trained on it in order to make it successful.

Shanghai is a similar storey. Their first couple of lines were pretty sloppy but after the workforce had 10 years of experience things have started to click.


If you want Toronto to undergo a rapid expansion, plan to spend the first 10 years learning and growing a dedicated workforce (Spadina has been good for this), get dedicated reliable funding (we have none of this), standardize as much as possible (single tunnel design, single station design, etc.), have Metrolinx put together a couple dozen BCAs for various 2 station extensions (and prioritize well in advance), and go from there by taking soil samples for the first 5 on the list and doing preliminary engineering.

TTC has shown with streetcar track replacement that a continuous program is useful. Costs dropped by 30% between the 90's when they started and today, despite the increase price of materials, fuel, labour, etc. The time required dropped significantly as well.

Very interesting philosophy, and it makes total sense. Also, it gives the construction workers long-term jobs (ie their job on 1 project is done, they start right away on another). Now if only Metrolinx would get started on studying some of the BCAs.

 

[adeel]

Paleo answered the operating cost, but I think you are asking about the capital cost.

General ballpark costs for subway would be about $300 million per km. More if you are having to tunnel under heavily built-up areas with extensive existing underground infrastructure (extreme case being the DRL through downtown), less if you are cut-and-covering through fields in Vaughan.

Eglinton underground portion would be similar cost HRT or LRT, although that would be for trains shorter than the six car trains currently used on YUS and Bloor-Danforth. The advantage of the LRT option though is that once leaving underground and running in median, costs will only be about 1/4 to 1/3 of subway.

Subway stations would be on the order of $100 million (although that would be less if you were just putting in a minimal station in a trench like Summerhill). Connections with existing lines would add to your costs.

Ahh I guess I should try and search this mammoth thread for more detailed calculations based on a number of assumptions that are realistic. Unless someone has that stickied somewhere. I guess what I am really asking for is a more detailed number for each of these items. Not to say that I have smoe magical funding formula, but I guess that I do have some ideas that Id like to work out on my own.

 

[gweed123]

Ahh I guess I should try and search this mammoth thread for more detailed calculations based on a number of assumptions that are realistic. Unless someone has that stickied somewhere. I guess what I am really asking for is a more detailed number for each of these items. Not to say that I have smoe magical funding formula, but I guess that I do have some ideas that Id like to work out on my own.

Assuming $320 million/km:

B-D to STC: $1.92 billion
Sheppard (Don Mills to STC): $2.5 billion
Sheppard (Yonge to Downsview): $1.4 billion

Existing TC Costs:
SLRT upgrade: $1.4 billion
ECLRT: $4.6 billion
SELRT: $0.95 billion
FWLRT: $1.2 billion

 

[Rainforest]

Ford will not built any part of the Eglinton line above ground so reaching Leslie or Don Mills which would be required to eliminate the overlapping bus routes on Eglinton would be a serious problem. The Eglinton LRT tunnel is designed to have the LRT arrive in the middle of the street near Black Creek and near Leslie. The additional cost to change only the piece from Keele to Jane and from Laird to Don Mills would be significant since crossing river valleys is part of the most expensive aspects of subway building after station creation (3 new underground / grade-separated stations are required as well at Weston, Jane, and Leslie). Where will the money come from.

Ford is not very detail-oriented, especially when it comes to transit. When he says "all construction underground", does he really mean that, or "fully grade-separate"?

If they use LRT rolling stock on Eglinton, full grade separation between Brentcliffe and Don Mills could be achieved without tunneling all the way. The portal might have to be moved 300 - 400 m east, but from that point, a few options exist:

a) South of the road; will probably need a bridge over the valley.
b) Two southmost lanes of Eglinton instead of two central lanes; that means totally avoinding Eglionton - Leslie traffic.
c) Two central lanes of Eglinton, but build a graded interchange with Leslie. LRT would be fully separate in the middle, Allen Rd style.

The Don Mills station is planned underground, anyway.

 

[gweed123]

Ford is not very detail-oriented, especially when it comes to transit. When he says "all construction underground", does he really mean that, or "fully grade-separate"?

If they use LRT rolling stock on Eglinton, full grade separation between Brentcliffe and Don Mills could be achieved without tunneling all the way. The portal might have to be moved 300 - 400 m east, but from that point, a few options exist:

a) South of the road; will probably need a bridge over the valley.
b) Two southmost lanes of Eglinton instead of two central lanes; that means totally avoinding Eglionton - Leslie traffic.
c) Two central lanes of Eglinton, but build a graded interchange with Leslie. LRT would be fully separate in the middle, Allen Rd style.

The Don Mills station is planned underground, anyway.

I like that idea of having the two southern-most lanes. I hadn't considered that, but it certainly makes sense, especially when it's adjacent to a T intersection. It would be very similar to what exists on Lakeshore Blvd just east of the Ex.