Transit City Plan

[nfitz]

Well at this point we don't even know if it is an LRT.

At this point, the signed contract between Toronto and Metrolinx is LRT.

Oliver Moore is saying that the rumour is, that it will become BRT.

How come Smart Track isn't on the 6 year map? Tory said it would be done in 7 years, and that was about a year ago.

Presumably because this isn't a political exercise, but a realistic exercise.

Perhaps once tonight's presentation is fully released, we'll know more.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I love that both the Highway 7 BRT and the Scarborough-Durham BRT (the grey that goes east from Scarborough Centre) are both included. Interesting.

At least as noteworthy (if I can toot the obvious horn) that the TTC's updated "motherlode" of a rapid transit map apparently doesn't include the 1 subway approved by council and with a complete EA, which is to say, the Yonge North extension.

What's most interesting at this point is that even though it's been affirmed as part of Metrolinx's next wave (i.e. their initial "by 2021" list) and it's reasonable to assume it will be up there on the "Big Move 2.0" list, but Toronto doesn't even have it on the by-2031 list. Regardless of how important anyone thinks it is or isn't, that speaks to an interesting gulf between "local" and "regional" priorities that has to get ironed out one way or another.

Overall, it's nice to imagine that as Toronto's RT network within that timeframe. But we've all seen ambitious maps like it before so we'll see what it actually becomes.

 

[Tewder]

Is it me or is there a massive oversight here with respect to north/south connectivity in the southwest of the map? An electrified Lakeshore GO line still has no northward connection points until Union, meaning that somebody coming into the city from the West has to go all the way to Union in order to connect back to western parts of the city. Why wouldn't there be a transit hub in the west, relieving travel to Union? Why wouldn't the Lakeshore line connect to the Relief Line for example?

 

[Canadian Chocho]

Perhaps, but they identify other routes as BRT like Steeles. Sheppard is the only one identified as RT.

Perhaps they plan on moving the Scarborough RT over to Sheppard lol?

Pardon me if this has already been asked or if it's a stupid question but would the RT trains fit into the Sheppard Subway tunnel? I know the difficulties in changing the Sheppard line from a Subway to an underground LRT is that the tunnel is too small, but would the RT trains be able to fit?

 

[nfitz]

At least as noteworthy (if I can toot the obvious horn) that the TTC's updated "motherlode" of a rapid transit map apparently doesn't include the 1 subway approved by council and with a complete EA, which is to say, the Yonge North extension.

Yes it does - it's shown as "Additional RT".

It's not something the city would be looking to fund, so like the Ellesmere BRT, it's not a detail they need to worry about, but it's on the map.

 

[kEiThZ]

Honestly, the loads are moderate enough that BRT could work. You really don't need LRT. And it'd be easier to convert to LRT later, once the roads are widened.

 

[ssiguy2]

Well it's a far superior plan than Miller's TC "one size fit's all" LRT plan.

It's good they are seeing the value of BRT but the map isn't really anything surprising with one notable exception.........UPX/ST. It has the UPX continuing to run and has ST stopping at Eglinton which is probably already been decided as, at a minimum, going to Etobicoke North.

I think ST north of Eglinton and the demise of the UPX in it's current form are already considered fact Metrolinx and the TTC and most certainly by Tory & Wynne.

 

[crs1026]

Once the fourth track is added to the Weston line (It's currently three tracks, the limiting factor is the new 401 tunnel, and it's reportedly in the works) then RER can be segregated into 'Express' and 'ST'. The 'Express' can run as such from Etobicoke North, with same stops as UP (Mount Dennis and Bloor). One sees a pretty good number of people on the platform at Bloor going west in the afternoon. The 'ST' needs to begin at Etobicoke North and can handle all the local stops to downtown. If Weston got that, they would forget about ever wanting to take UP to the airport. Frankly, 'ST' or 'RER making stops' is semantics.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

Well it's a far superior plan than Miller's TC "one size fit's all" LRT plan.

What are you comparing to? The Transit City LRT plan was LRT only. The Transit City Bus plan had no LRT.

Recall that the overall maps for all the rojects, coming out of TTC and the planning department, back when Miller was mayor also had Yonge North (which had morphed into subway later under Miller) Vaughan Extension, some east-west downtown lines AND the King Street transit corridor. And several other projects that have now vanished, such as the Kingston Road BRT, Hydro Corridors, Dundas West, RT to Malvern

July 2008

I'm not sure why you are choosing to ignore all those other, and remarkably similar, projects - and just focus on the LRT portion.

 

[Scotian]

Is it me or is there a massive oversight here with respect to north/south connectivity in the southwest of the map? An electrified Lakeshore GO line still has no northward connection points until Union, meaning that somebody coming into the city from the West has to go all the way to Union in order to connect back to western parts of the city. Why wouldn't there be a transit hub in the west, relieving travel to Union? Why wouldn't the Lakeshore line connect to the Relief Line for example?

You make very good points.

The Jane buses (up to Steeles) combined averaged 43,500 weekday riders and about 17,000 on weekends in 2014 (most recent stats I could find). Meanwhile, the Dufferin buses (up to Wilson Stn.) averaged 44,000 weekday and about 33,000 weekend riders. Dufferin also is seeing much more development than Jane is, and rapid transit on that route would fix your problem of not having a link between the Lakeshore and Relief (Queen) lines not to mention run up to the Eglinton line as well.

It just seems like the Jane line is luxury whereas a line along Dufferin, while probably needing to be buried in its entirely and thus more costly, would solve multiple problems.

 

[gweed123]

Honestly, the loads are moderate enough that BRT could work. You really don't need LRT. And it'd be easier to convert to LRT later, once the roads are widened.

Especially with RER/SmartTrack at Agincourt, which wasn't in the plans when Transit City was initially conceived. The whole rationale of "everything flows west to Don Mills" wouldn't really apply as much, as you'd have a mid-line transfer point, which would lower the peak point pphpd entering Don Mills.

So yes, BRT would be appropriate, either Rapidway style or just curbside dedicated lanes.

Is it me or is there a massive oversight here with respect to north/south connectivity in the southwest of the map? An electrified Lakeshore GO line still has no northward connection points until Union, meaning that somebody coming into the city from the West has to go all the way to Union in order to connect back to western parts of the city. Why wouldn't there be a transit hub in the west, relieving travel to Union? Why wouldn't the Lakeshore line connect to the Relief Line for example?

You're absolutely right. An RER station at Roncesvalles would really be all that's needed in the short term though. You'd have the King streetcar, which just east of there goes into a transit mall (so pretty rapid), and you'd have an easy connection to Dundas West via that same route.

 

[David Brake]

Is it me or is there a massive oversight here with respect to north/south connectivity in the southwest of the map? An electrified Lakeshore GO line still has no northward connection points until Union

Well... one rather roundabout solution that appears to be on offer for both the "minimalist" and "maximalist" 15 year options is changing at Exhibition/Liberty Village to the SmartTrack then taking it back NW towards Bloor West? But yes even the most ambitious plan on the table has gaps.

 

[David Brake]

The story I promised you went live last night by the way in case you missed it - it displays and summarises the three key transit planning maps unveiled yesterday - the six year, the 15 year "minimalist" and the 15 year "maximalist" maps. I would like to know what you think...

 

[gweed123]

On the plus side of this new plan, the map clearly shows a new RER station at Park Lawn, connecting to the Waterfront LRT. Certain forum members should be pretty pleased with that .

 

[salsa]

The Jane buses (up to Steeles) combined averaged 43,500 weekday riders and about 17,000 on weekends in 2014 (most recent stats I could find). Meanwhile, the Dufferin buses (up to Wilson Stn.) averaged 44,000 weekday and about 33,000 weekend riders. Dufferin also is seeing much more development than Jane is, and rapid transit on that route would fix your problem of not having a link between the Lakeshore and Relief (Queen) lines not to mention run up to the Eglinton line as well.

It just seems like the Jane line is luxury whereas a line along Dufferin, while probably needing to be buried in its entirely and thus more costly, would solve multiple problems.

What a stupid mistake that the Spadina subway was put in the middle of a highway instead of under Dufferin St.