Transit City Plan

[nfitz]

I thought that Queen already has POP?

Uh - yeah, that was my point.

 

[W. K. Lis]

24-hour Transit City service?

At the present time, the HRT subway does not have 24-hour service is because the bulk of the TTC’s track and tunnel maintenance is done overnight, when trains don’t run. However, when the TTC’s automated signalling system is installed by 2016±, trains could by then be able to run in both directions on one track, leaving the other side quiet for maintenance.

Also at the present time, the 301 Queen and 306 Carlton are the only blue night streetcar service. The 312 St. Clair used to be streetcar, until the route was extended to Jane Street and south to Bloor Street. Other streetcar routes are replaced by blue night bus service.

So what about the Transit City lines? Would they be running 24 hours? Could connecting lines be used to provide a blue night service over several Transit City, streetcar, and bus routes? For example, could the Eglinton Crosstown and the Scarborough-Malvern LRT be combined for a blue night service? Could the Jane LRT, Junction (if converted to streetcar), and King (Roncesvalles) streetcar be combined for a 313 double-ended LRT blue night service?

 

[taal]

I'd think so ... for some of the routes ... Finch West, Eglinton, Dufferin ... are all already 24 hour routes ... well uses at that. When I've been waiting for the 36 ( finch west) at 3-5am it comes every 20-30min and it's always pretty full ... it's not standing room only : - ) but usually most of the seats are taken ... and this isn't on Friday / Saturday, usually on Monday/Tuesday of all days.

 

[kEiThZ]

Fantasy Plan

Anybody willing to venture a guess on what it would cost if this was done right....ie. finish the Sheppard subway, extend the BD line to STC, build a heavy rail subway on Eglinton, etc.

 

[afransen]

If you're looking for a guess:

$1.5 billion to finish Shepperd. $2 billion to extend B-D to STC. $3 - 3.5 billion for Eglinton West.

Just numbers I pulled out of thin air...

 

[Rainforest]

Rainforest

BD subway to STC: 1.2 - 1.4 B
Sheppard subway to STC: 1.7 - 2 B
Eglinton subway, Kennedy to Pearson: 6 - 7 B
Downtown relief subway from downtown to Sheppard / Don Mills: 4 - 5 B

 

[mgl]

BD subway to STC: 1.2 - 1.4 B
Sheppard subway to STC: 1.7 - 2 B
Eglinton subway, Kennedy to Pearson: 6 - 7 B
Downtown relief subway from downtown to Sheppard / Don Mills: 4 - 5 B

If it were properly structured, a large-scale construction project during a recessionary time such as we seem to be entering would be pay long-term results (better transit) and short-term results (jobs). The steel, concrete, trains, wires, tiles, etc could all be sourced in Ontario. Tens of thousands of people would have jobs and pay taxes instead of collecting EI or welfare. Although the deficit is a problem when tax revenues are down, we should invest in infrastructure during a recession and not as much during the boom years. Now is the time to start investing.

 

[Dan416]

My $15 Billion Ultimate Subway Plan for Toronto

Yonge to Centre (4 km): 1 B
Danforth to STC (6 km): 1.5 B
Sheppard to STC (8 km): 2 B
Eglinton Subway (Jane to Don Mills, 13.5 km): 5 B
Queen DRL (Dundas West to Warden, 17 km): 5.5 B

What Can Wait:

Eglinton to Pearson, Eglinton to Kennedy
Bloor to MCC
Spadina to VCC
Eglinton to Hurontario
Sheppard to Dufferin

 

[DSC]

Agreed. But set the fine high enough, and have enough enforcement officers (who will pay for themselves through fines), and the masses will quickly fall in line and learn to love their new POP overlord.

Has anyone actually ever seen a POP enforcement officer on a Queen streetcar? I do not use it very often but have yet to see or hear of one being sighted!

 

[Rainforest]

Rainforest

My $15 Billion Ultimate Subway Plan for Toronto

Yonge to Centre (4 km): 1 B
Danforth to STC (6 km): 1.5 B
Sheppard to STC (8 km): 2 B
Eglinton Subway (Jane to Don Mills, 13.5 km): 5 B
Queen DRL (Dundas West to Warden, 17 km): 5.5 B

What Can Wait:

Eglinton to Pearson, Eglinton to Kennedy
Bloor to MCC
Spadina to VCC
Eglinton to Hurontario
Sheppard to Dufferin

Assuming a 15 B package for Toronto and no more funding for a while, I'd rather invest a large portion of it in light rail, while including some subways:

Subways: DRL to Eglinton & Don Mills (3 B), Yonge to Steeles (0.5 B), Sheppard to Agincourt (1.2 B), Spadina to YorkU and Steeles (2 B). Total: 6.7 B.

LRT: Replacement of SRT and extension to Malvern (800 m), Eglinton from Kennedy to Pearson (3.5 B), Finch W to Pearson (800 m), Kipling (600 m), Eglinton – Kingston Rd – UTSC (500 m), McCowan to Steeles (400 m). Total: 6.6 B.

The remainder of 1.7 B would go towards GO enhancements: REX service to Kennedy – Agincourt – Milliken (– Markham), Kipling – Mississauga CC (– western Mississauga), Etobicoke – Pearson, Etobicoke – Brampton, Lakeshore E and W. I won’t give estimates for individual lines, as I have no idea how much each REX might cost. Likely they will not all fit in 1.7 B, so priorities will have to be chosen.

The mixed LRT / subway plan will resolve a much larger number of existing bottlenecks than a subway only plan can. On the flip side, certain development opportunities will be lost (compared to the subway plan).

In case those 15 B come just for, say, the first 20 years of the program, but the stream of capital transit funding continues beyond that date, I’d schedule subways instead of some LRT lines. The list would depend on how mighty that funding stream is.

Note though that getting even 15 B for Toronto means at least 6 - 8 B for the rest of GTA, bringing the total bill to 21 – 23 B. Ignoring Mississauga, Hamilton, York Region etc would be both irrational and politically impossible.

 

[Chuck]

All those plans are fine, but I think that express tracks should be considered as well. We could even adopt the New York model, in which express tracks and new lines are combined into one project. A DRL could run generally along Don Mills between Steeles and Eglinton Station. At Eglinton Station, the DRL continues south on Yonge as express tracks, eventually terminating at King. This would kill two birds with one stone as new subway service is brought to the Don Mills corridor, while the Yonge line gets express tracks.

 

[Whoaccio]

All those plans are fine, but I think that express tracks should be considered as well. We could even adopt the New York model, in which express tracks and new lines are combined into one project. A DRL could run generally along Don Mills between Steeles and Eglinton Station. At Eglinton Station, the DRL continues south on Yonge as express tracks, eventually terminating at King. This would kill two birds with one stone as new subway service is brought to the Don Mills corridor, while the Yonge line gets express tracks.

Wait, I don't understand. You would run a 4-line DRL along Don-Mills between Steeles/Eglinton, but then wouldn't the route continue down through Flemingdon and such, then down Pape and onto the rail tracks? How would that serve the Yonge Line with express tracks?

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCP&cp=43.626623~-79.343691&style=r&lvl=13&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=28299924&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&cid=A043444D726AA4E8!245&encType=1

That would be my ideal solution. At lest in the short-medium term. Maybe in the long run extend up to Finch & Steeles, but to begin with I am content with Eglinton. The little stub CityPlace-Union route would be pretty cheap, being entirely in the rail ROW, and would serve all the various condo-clusters. I mean, why plan for an exceedingly high density area just outside the downtown core, and then leave it unconnected to the RT network?

 

[Dan416]

Assuming a 15 B package for Toronto and no more funding for a while, I'd rather invest a large portion of it in light rail, while including some subways:

Subways: DRL to Eglinton & Don Mills (3 B), Yonge to Steeles (0.5 B), Sheppard to Agincourt (1.2 B), Spadina to YorkU and Steeles (2 B). Total: 6.7 B.

LRT: Replacement of SRT and extension to Malvern (800 m), Eglinton from Kennedy to Pearson (3.5 B), Finch W to Pearson (800 m), Kipling (600 m), Eglinton – Kingston Rd – UTSC (500 m), McCowan to Steeles (400 m). Total: 6.6 B.

The remainder of 1.7 B would go towards GO enhancements: REX service to Kennedy – Agincourt – Milliken (– Markham), Kipling – Mississauga CC (– western Mississauga), Etobicoke – Pearson, Etobicoke – Brampton, Lakeshore E and W. I won’t give estimates for individual lines, as I have no idea how much each REX might cost. Likely they will not all fit in 1.7 B, so priorities will have to be chosen.

The mixed LRT / subway plan will resolve a much larger number of existing bottlenecks than a subway only plan can. On the flip side, certain development opportunities will be lost (compared to the subway plan).

In case those 15 B come just for, say, the first 20 years of the program, but the stream of capital transit funding continues beyond that date, I’d schedule subways instead of some LRT lines. The list would depend on how mighty that funding stream is.

Note though that getting even 15 B for Toronto means at least 6 - 8 B for the rest of GTA, bringing the total bill to 21 – 23 B. Ignoring Mississauga, Hamilton, York Region etc would be both irrational and politically impossible.

I never said to ignore the 905. My plan was just a Toronto Subway plan. Not a subway/RER/LRT plan.

If you want to look at my full plan, I suggest you look at http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...499509425181132370.00044a0285de24508b14e&z=10

Sorry that I left out Hamilton.

 

[Rainforest]

I never said to ignore the 905. My plan was just a Toronto Subway plan. Not a subway/RER/LRT plan.

If you want to look at my full plan, I suggest you look at http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...499509425181132370.00044a0285de24508b14e&z=10

Sorry that I left out Hamilton.

Oh, I didn't imply that your plan ignores the rest of GTA (sorry about misunderstanding). I just wanted to emphasize that 15 B for Toronto really means at least 21 - 23 B in the overall plan.

Speaking of your routing, it looks very reasonable (some debates are possible as always). But note that the Toronto portion of your plan would actually cost more than 15 B. Those are just for the highest-priority subways, whereas if the LRT lines (Finch, Jane, Waterfront West, Don Mills, and Scarborough per your map) are counted in, the bill will grow to about 18 - 19 B.

 

[Dan416]

Oh, I didn't imply that your plan ignores the rest of GTA (sorry about misunderstanding). I just wanted to emphasize that 15 B for Toronto really means at least 21 - 23 B in the overall plan.

Speaking of your routing, it looks very reasonable (some debates are possible as always). But note that the Toronto portion of your plan would actually cost more than 15 B. Those are just for the highest-priority subways, whereas if the LRT lines (Finch, Jane, Waterfront West, Don Mills, and Scarborough per your map) are counted in, the bill will grow to about 18 - 19 B.

My $15 Billion Dollar Ultimate Toronto Subway Planâ„¢ is a cut-down version of my Ultimate Ultimate GTA Subway & LRT Planâ„¢ (lol).

I was cutting it down to $15 billion to make it more affordable, as I feel the rest of it can wait 50 years or so.