News   Jul 26, 2024
 1.2K     1 
News   Jul 26, 2024
 1K     0 
News   Jul 26, 2024
 2.7K     2 

Transit City Plan

Which transit plan do you prefer?

  • Transit City

    Votes: 95 79.2%
  • Ford City

    Votes: 25 20.8%

  • Total voters
    120
The southern part of the ward should be serviced by an electrified GO Lakeshore line, since the tracks and ROW are already there. Not sure about the northern part though (which happens to be next to one of the city's least densified area - Rouge Park) , maybe BRT? since LRT would be overkilled for that route also.
Maybe BRT ... the proposed LRT connection down Morningside to UT Scarborough would have been a benefit. I don't see what the proposed Sheppard Subway does for UT Scarborough ...

Though if LRT is overkill for that route ... surely subway east of Victoria Park is also overkill for that route ...
 
no problem with sheppard making it to victoria park. but if that happens will the lrt change from don mills to victoria park? if not wouldnt this configuration simply make an additional transfer which by the way is the one thing people hate about transit.
 
no problem with sheppard making it to victoria park. but if that happens will the lrt change from don mills to victoria park? if not wouldnt this configuration simply make an additional transfer which by the way is the one thing people hate about transit.

My impression is that traffic volumes are very high west of Kennedy and fall pretty drastically east of McCowan. Both 190 and 199 turn down McCowan to STC, so there is much less bus service on Sheppard/Finch east of there, and traffic volumes on Hwy 401 fall fairly rapidly east of there as well. Also 85 tends to be packed as far as Kennedy or so and then lightly used at the eastern end. There is always heavy rush hour traffic congestion on 401 between Hwy 404 and somewhere between McCowan and Morningside, especially in AM rush hour, while between Morningside and the end of collector express at Brock Rd in Pickering rarely has congestion at all. Probably the lack of development between McCowan and Markham Rd north of the 401 due to Agincourt Yard accounts for this. Therefore I think that it makes sense to end the subway at Scarborough Centre as originally planned. My big problem with the LRT proposal is that it puts two incompatible technologies on one corridor forcing a permanent transfer at Don Mills/Sheppard (whereas the current transfer to buses can be removed); also LRT does not provide enough capacity to act as a substitute for Hwy 401 (a surface LRT stopping at red lights has a small fraction of the capacity of a massive 14 lane highway).

East of McCowan the only subway extension that makes sense is an extension of the SRT (Eglinton Line) to Malvern Town Centre as was planned ages ago. I don't think that LRT to UTSC is really needed. For the time being BRT along Ellesmere and Kingston Road to Centenary Hospital, UTSC/Centennial College, and Pickering Town Centre is more than adequate.
 
Last edited:
As an example, the maximum capacity of Highway 401 east of 404, which is in most sections 14 lanes, 7 lanes per direction (assuming 2000 cars per hour per lane) is 14000 cars/direction/hour, and west of Morningside it is heavily congested westbound in morning rush hour. The maximum capacity of LRT with multiple unit trains (assume crush load capacity of 500/vehicle) running 5 minute headways is 6000 people/direction/hour, also it eliminates any possibility of widening Sheppard to 6 lanes for a possible loss of 2000 cars/hour/direction. My assumption is that signal priority becomes ineffective at headways <5 minutes causing frequent stopping at red lights and severe streetcar bunching, so headway is assumed to be limited to 5 minutes, and that running full subway-length trains is difficult because they would block intersections. The Spadina streetcar runs shorter headways, but suffers from very slow speeds and severe bunching resulting in bad service. In comparison a subway would run longer trains (1000 person crush load capacity) every 2 minutes, so it would have a maximum capacity of 30000 people/direction/hour, double that of Hwy 401.
 
; also LRT does not provide enough capacity to act as a substitute for Hwy 401 (a surface LRT stopping at red lights has a small fraction of the capacity of a massive 14 lane highway).
Not exactly a substitute for 401, but rather to provide a faster way for people between the 401 and Finch Av. East to go from east to west and vice versa. Currently. this is what happens at morning rush: north-south roads get clogged near the 401, those who should've been using the 401 to do their crosstown commute end up using the arterials. The congestions on those roads cause delays to bus routes - especially the north-south routes. With an LRT ROW with signal priority and <5min headway, I can imagine the problem to get worse. The bottlenecks at the 401 ramps already give us a preview of it.
 
Last edited:
Not exactly a substitute for 401, but rather to provide a faster way for people between the 401 and Finch Av. East to go from east to west and vice versa. Currently. this is what happens at morning rush: north-south roads get clogged near the 401, those who should've been using the 401 to do their crosstown commute end up using the arterials. The congestions on those roads cause delays to bus routes - especially the north-south routes. With an LRT ROW with signal priority and <5min headway, I can imagine the problem to get worse. The bottlenecks at the 401 ramps already give us a preview of it.

My point is that the 401 (and Sheppard/Finch) both get heavily congested in rush hour, and subway provides a much larger % increase in east west capacity than LRT. Suppose the 401 were closed due to an incident (say car accident) but the subway remained open, a subway would be able to carry a huge influx of passengers while LRT couldn't possibly cope. Or say if gas prices went through the roof and everyone started driving a lot less. A subway provides enough capacity to accommodate everyone who currently drives on 401, Sheppard and Finch put together if they wanted to use it, LRT provides only a small amount of capacity increase and a transfer at an inconvenient location.

Reducing congestion on north south roads leading to the 401 is certainly a benefit, but my main concern is the heavy congestion on 401 itself. Between around Morningside and the 404 westbound in AM rush hour is extremely congested, I think mostly because of commuters from Scarborough & Durham Region commuting to North York. The obvious solution is, extend Sheppard subway to Scarborough Centre; extend Eglinton line/SRT to Malvern; and add more service to connecting GO train lines (Richmond Hill, Stouffville, the CP line from Agincourt to Malvern to Pickering).
 
As an example, the maximum capacity of Highway 401 east of 404, which is in most sections 14 lanes, 7 lanes per direction (assuming 2000 cars per hour per lane) is 14000 cars/direction/hour, and west of Morningside it is heavily congested westbound in morning rush hour. The maximum capacity of LRT with multiple unit trains (assume crush load capacity of 500/vehicle) running 5 minute headways is 6000 people/direction/hour, also it eliminates any possibility of widening Sheppard to 6 lanes for a possible loss of 2000 cars/hour/direction. My assumption is that signal priority becomes ineffective at headways <5 minutes causing frequent stopping at red lights and severe streetcar bunching, so headway is assumed to be limited to 5 minutes, and that running full subway-length trains is difficult because they would block intersections. The Spadina streetcar runs shorter headways, but suffers from very slow speeds and severe bunching resulting in bad service. In comparison a subway would run longer trains (1000 person crush load capacity) every 2 minutes, so it would have a maximum capacity of 30000 people/direction/hour, double that of Hwy 401.

Just an fyi, the maximum capacity of any vehicle lane is 1800 vph, not 2000. It doesn't change what you're trying to say, but I just thought I'd let you know for future reference. If you do the math on 1800, it works out to being 1 car every 2 seconds, which is the accepted safe travelling distance, which most people follow (some don't, but some also leave more than 2 seconds space, so it balances out).

Also, can we please get over this myth that building a subway along Sheppard is going to somehow relieve the 401? They're serving two different patterns. Most of the people on the 401 eastbound at McCowan in the AM peak got on it outside of the City of Toronto. Very few, if any, of those people are going to get off the highway and take a 50 min subway ride downtown. The only people that a Sheppard subway are going to benefit are those who would otherwise be getting on the 401 at Victoria Park, Warden, Kennedy, or McCowan (and to a much lesser extent those further east in Scarborough who would bus to the subway).

The only true competition to the 401 would be GO Transit. I could see a lot more people getting off the 401 at McCowan and then driving to the Agincourt GO station (assuming ample parking there), and taking that downtown, because there would be a significant time savings involved. Of course, many of those people would probably be equally served by increased GO service along the Lakeshore East lines in Pickering and points east of there, so that is sort of moot.

My point is this: If you want to relieve highway congestion, look at the only form of rapid transit than even comes close to approaching highway speeds: regional express rail. Pour the money into that, and you'll see highway congestion decrease. But this notion that the Sheppard Subway will affect the 401 is pretty ridiculous. The effect will be negligible, at best.
 
Last edited:
Totally agreed. GO is the only feasible way to get people off the highways, and only when it goes where those people on the highways are going. I think it's safe to say most of the people on the 401 are not exactly served by GO's current lines.
 
Totally agreed. GO is the only feasible way to get people off the highways, and only when it goes where those people on the highways are going. I think it's safe to say most of the people on the 401 are not exactly served by GO's current lines.

Most of the people on the 401 aren't going anywhere near downtown. I think that commuters from Scarborough and Durham Region who use the 401 are mostly going to North York & Markham. The idea is that commuters from the east and northeast would transfer from buses at Scarborough Centre, coming from Durham Region and eastern Scarborough. Transfers would also be available to/from the GO Stouffville line and the CP line (from Malvern and north Pickering) at Agincourt station. This line would then directly serve North York Centre as well as the Consumers Road business park area, and with a transfer to the Spadina line York University. Serving Markham, and other employment areas not directly served such as York Mills/Leslie and Gordon Baker Road, will be trickier but could be accomplished by bus connections and possibly the Richmond Hill line.

GO is not a substitute for the Sheppard line because there is no east west rail corridor between Scarborough Centre and North York Centre. The Sheppard line could connect with GO lines however.
 
Listen at best we have to have SOMETHING done before 2030. What's killing this region is the scrapping of plans every 10 years.

For me. Extend Eglinton to the Airport. Don't care how it's done. Extend Bloor Danforth to Square One and Highway 2. LRT on Finch West, not enough demand for a subway. DRL from Bloor to Pape. LRT on Jane and Don Mills.

2 Billion Eglinton Pearson (4 billion underground)
2.5 Billon Kipling to TO SQ1
1.5 Billion Danforth to Highway 2
800 Million Jane LRT
800 Million Don Mills LRT
900 Finch-Humber LRT
3 Billion DRL.

Etch it in Stone. (make it hard to change via provincial legislation)

AND STICK TO IT!!!.

Time for Toronto to stop all this petty partisan bickering and stand the hell up.
 
What if we take a look at Viva next here ?

On Hi-way 7 east, the amount of office space is basically unparalleled in Toronto other then the core and NYCC, so long term the idea this will be a huge ridership line and they can upgrade to a LRT.

What if for some of these routes, we build the infrastructure but start with a BRT as well i.e. may be on finch, use extended busses ... just like viva. But run them every 2 min or so. Should probably be sufficent for the next 10 years. I say that becuse why would we expect ridership on finch to increase, unlike say hi-way 7. Not much in the was of residential or commercial planned. This probably won't work on Sheppard.

But it could work on Don Mills ... again, less some residential, not much in new commercial development ... which is the MAIN driver of transit use.

That should bring the price tag down significantly.
 
That should bring the price tag down significantly.

Based on the cost projections done for the City of Ottawa Supplementary Transit plan, by about 1/3 actually. I use the City of Ottawa Supplementary Transit plan as a base because it is the only one of its kind in Canada that I could find that has LRT and BRT projections in the same report, broken down into some pretty detailed costs. The costs obviously vary depending on implementation and corridor, but they generally fit within the 30-40% range in terms of capital costs (meaning BRT typically costs 30-40% of what LRT does per km).

I have been advocating the approach that you described above for quite a while now.

One of the common rebuttals against it is "yes, the capital expense is less, but the operational expense is higher". My response: LRT may be more cost effective above a certain level, but even when switching from regular bus route to BRT, it only becomes an increased operational cost if you add more buses to the route than what is currently operating. Even just replacing the number of buses currently on a route like Finch West with an equal number of artics will result in an increased capacity.

Not only can each bus carry more people, but the fact that each bus can make the entire run in less time effectively increases the frequency of the buses without adding a single new bus to the route. Will it double the frequency? No. But if you have a 1hr end-to-end route before with a frequency of 5 minutes, that means at any given time you have 24 buses doing that route (not counting any that would be "on break"). If you reduce that down to 50 minutes, you've added nearly a minute to the frequency of the buses without adding a single new bus to the route. The numbers can be changed to whatever you want, but the principle is the same.
 
The key in my opinion is this:

Do we ever predict much higher ridership on Finch, my answer is NO, even 50 years out. If you can otherwise then maybe there's merit with full on LRT.

Finch I say no for many reasons, namely the fact the sheppard subway will hopefully be completed i.e. the west portion to Downsview.
 
Etch it in Stone. (make it hard to change via provincial legislation)

AND STICK TO IT!!!.

Time for Toronto to stop all this petty partisan bickering and stand the hell up.

I wondered if Ford would take the "etch it in stone" concept too far. He did talk about extending the Sheppard subway to Vic Park. Building one station at a time involves significant start-up costs for each portion. What if instead he tunnelled all the way to Scarborough Town Centre and built no tracks or stations. Essentially, he would for subsequant leaders to adopt that route.
 
Building one station at a time involves significant start-up costs for each portion.
Does it? All 6 of the Spadina extension stations are separate construction contracts. The tunnelling is two contracts (each including one of the stations), but they are still doing Spadina in 3 different chunks of tunelling, as it's not cost effective to do it in one long run. The track will be installed in one contract, but much of the cost is driven by length.

I doubt there's that much savings to be had to build 5 km and 4 stations, compared to 2.5 km and 2 stations (for example). If there was, we wouldn't see 6 contracts for the Spadina line, instead of just one.
 

Back
Top