Transit City Plan

[Ed Drass]

I guess there's TOD, and plain old Development. A useful distinction might be whether those condo dwellers are indeed taking transit or hopping on the 401. I've heard Gary McNeil state that he did not care much for residential construction near GO stations because it did not add anywhere near as many riders as commercial.

Just because we would use transit for most of our trips if perched near Bayview station does not confirm that residents actually do. I expect there are studies somewhere...

Not that a lack of empirical measure will stop the conjecture, either here or in the mayor's office. For some folks, ridership justification rates seems to rate well below possible profit and tax revenues. And look at the absolutist labelling of LRT or BRT: many comfortably state these bring no development -- as if a tower complex is the only measurable kind of growth.

So, how do we determine what role large developers have had in the subway-is-the-only-way-to-go campaign of 2010 and 2011?

ed d.

 

[Automation Gallery]

Cost of Transit City seems way out of line

The St. Clair route’s costs are similar to those for comparable projects elsewhere, when converted into 2010 Canadian dollars. For example, an 11.4-kilometre LRT line under construction in Norfolk, Va., is costing $31 million per kilometre. A 12-kilometre line being built in Angers, France, is costing $29 million per kilometre, and that includes a river crossing and an expensive section where, for esthetic reasons, the vehicles are powered from below rather than from an overhead wire. The cost of Transit City’s surface routes seem extraordinarily high by any standard.

Even more out of line is what appears to be being budgeted for Transit City’s underground portion: 10 kilometres along Eglinton Ave. No separate costing is available for the tunnelled part, only for the whole 19 kilometres proposed for construction by 2020, which also includes nine kilometres of surface rail. The average cost for the 19 kilometres, in 2010 dollars, is $202 million per kilometre. If the cost of the surface portion is the same as for Transit City’s other surface LRT routes ($90 million per kilometre), the tunnelled LRT portion would appear to be costing an astonishing $338 million per kilometre.

More....http://www.thestar.com/opinion/edit...0--cost-of-transit-city-seems-way-out-of-line

 

[lafard]

I guess there's TOD, and plain old Development. A useful distinction might be whether those condo dwellers are indeed taking transit or hopping on the 401. I've heard Gary McNeil state that he did not care much for residential construction near GO stations because it did not add anywhere near as many riders as commercial.

Just because we would use transit for most of our trips if perched near Bayview station does not confirm that residents actually do. I expect there are studies somewhere...

Not that a lack of empirical measure will stop the conjecture, either here or in the mayor's office. For some folks, ridership justification rates seems to rate well below possible profit and tax revenues. And look at the absolutist labelling of LRT or BRT: many comfortably state these bring no development -- as if a tower complex is the only measurable kind of growth.

So, how do we determine what role large developers have had in the subway-is-the-only-way-to-go campaign of 2010 and 2011?

ed d.

But we know development is not subway dependant; near the mouth of the Humber, Windermere, Cityplace, even the suburban nodes such as Mississauga, Richmond Hill, and Brampton, all developed with surface transit.

Additionally, there are enough development sites near existing subways to keep developers busy for decades. We don't need to extend subways to "encourage development".

We need to accept development as it occurs, and provide the most efficient service to what is there and planned. In most cases, the apparent lack of subway encouraged development is not actually an issue. Sure, an LRT will not encourage development. The development will happen anyways when you change the zoning. And the LRT provides a very cost-effective way of providing service to those new developments, something the subway does not. Buses could still be adequate for most services, except LRTs do provide a notch better service, and alleviate capacity issues.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I don't think it's wise to try to argue that the Sheppard subway hasn't spurred development in the corridor, but I'd speculate that a lot of the people who bought in the condo projects there use the subway as a glorified commuter rail line. It takes them downtown and back for work but for everything else there is a car.

The area also appeals to people who work in the 905 but don't want to live in the 905. The subway takes them downtown for fun stuff but they can still drive to Vaughan or Markham for work relatively easily.

I'm not sure it matters, though. The operating costs for the subway are crazy and the proposed extension would only make that cost higher. In a better funding scenario the city could afford to take on that kind of annual operating loss with the knowledge that maybe in 50 years it would pay off, but we really don't have that luxury.

 

[M II A II R II K]

If the cost of the surface portion is the same as for Transit City’s other surface LRT routes ($90 million per kilometre), the tunnelled LRT portion would appear to be costing an astonishing $338 million per kilometre.

How does a kilometre of rail, cement, power lines, and a few traffic lights end up costing $90 million per kilometre....

 

[Electrify]

As for lost $, talk to TTC and asked them what the lost is yearly. At the same time, asked them what happen a few years ago when staff made the recommendation of closing the line 100% and who was the chair of TTC then. This was before Adam came chair.

When Miller didn't get his new taxes approved, he and Adam both wanted to shut down the line.

Take a look at the BD and tell me where all this high development is after 45 years of service considering Danforth is still dead after the streetcars were remove.

Zoning, among other factors, play more of a part than moving from a streetcar to a subway.

Same can be said for Yonge St for development.

Which stretch of Yonge St are you referring to?

North York Centre had to have a station built for it after the line was open and is far ahead in development than either Finch or Sheppard area. Sheppard is only starting to see redevelopment now.

Uhh... What are you talking about? Several office and condo towers along this stretch existed long before the North York Center station was constructed. Before this revitalization, it was the pre-war villages of Newtonbrook, Lansing, and Willowdale.

Why is absurd using buses for 22,000 riders on Sheppard when Dufferin see more riders in the first place and they have to deal with buses??

The Dufferin bus carries 44,000 passengers over 12km. The Sheppard subway carries 22,000 over 5km. On a passenger per kilometer basis, Sheppard comes out on top.

EDIT: According to sources, the Sheppard subway carries about 48,000 passengers per day, not 22,000. So on a passenger per kilometer basis, it annihilates Dufferin!

Tell me where all this real development is taking place on Sheppard as I 1,000's of photos of the development along this route and they only shows a few small areas??

Around subway stations, so that they are easy to get to. Also a surprising amount of development around Willowdale Ave, considering there is no station there (they should have canceled Bessarion and put in a stop at Willowdale instead).

Toronto was built by streetcars, not the car or subways. Suburbs were built by cars, not transit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Yonge_Railways

 

[GenerationW]

To what are you referring? There isn't $670 million of federal money for Sheppard. The province asked for about $4 billion for The Big Move from the feds, and they only came up with $317 million ... all of which went to Sheppard, with some of that already spent on the Agincourt grade separation.

You are correct. The $697 million Federal contribution to Spadina was in my head for some reason. But the fact that this funding is specific to Sheppard means our rotund Mayor has to get something built there.

On a Toronto radio station this week, former Toronto Olympic bid leader Paul Henderson accused Mayor Miller of choosing the former landfill site on Morningside for the aquatic centre in order to bribe the Federal government into contributing to the Sheppard LRT (and he did use the word bribe). Henderson believes the centre should have gone to Markham all along.

 

[Automation Gallery]

.
On a Toronto radio station this week, former Toronto Olympic bid leader Paul Henderson accused Mayor Miller of choosing the former landfill site on Morningside for the aquatic centre in order to bribe the Federal government into contributing to the Sheppard LRT (and he did use the word bribe). Henderson believes the centre should have gone to Markham all along.

Good one, I guess we will be hearing more about these back-room shady deals...Ahh, sooner or later the corruption that went down at City Hall in the last couple years will all come out of the woodwork.

 

[Asterix]

How does a kilometre of rail, cement, power lines, and a few traffic lights end up costing $90 million per kilometre....

If you read the editorial, it says "Even if generous allowances are made for vehicles and for their storage and maintenance yards" but fails to mention what those 'generous allowances' are.

How much do you think it costs to build two or three new carhouses? To buy a fleet of LRT vehicles?

Further points for you to cost out:
- both Eglinton and Sheppard have tunneled portions (Eglinton being longer and the former having to merge in with an existing subway station);
- is the GO Agincourt construction cost included?
- have you accounted for Bell, Hydro, streetlighting and gas main relocation in your cost comparisons?
- have you accounted for street widening costs?

(And for the civil engineers, 'cement' is just a powdered ingredient in concrete, not a building material unto its self.)

 

[nfitz]

How does a kilometre of rail, cement, power lines, and a few traffic lights end up costing $90 million per kilometre....

It doesn't. Richard Gilbert's numbers are not correct. I wonder what his motive is. I'm not sure where he went wrong, but I wonder if he has taken costs in future years and misrepresented then as 2010 dollars, and also ignored other costs such as the Agincourt GO separation and the underground sections of certain lines such as Sheppard East.

If you look at Metrolinx's 5 in 10 documents it gives the 2010 dollar amounts for delayed sections of Transit City.

These are:

Sheppard LRT - Conlins to Meadowvale - 1.6 km - $100 milllion - $62.5 million/km
Finch LRT - Finch West station to Finch station - 6.3 km - $460 million - $73.0 million/km
Eglinton LRT - Commerce to Jane - 8.2 km - $467 million - $57.0 million/km

Given that the Finch LRT would include the portal and construction at Finch station, then it would appear that the 2010 cost of LRT is about $60 million/km.

Also this includes stuff that isn't included in other cities - such as the widening of the road itself and all this entails (grading, new sidewalks, property aquirement, utility relocates, etc., etc.) It also includes rolling stock and electrical substations - I'm not sure all the other cities he presented include this.

The LRT vehicles that Metrolinx ordered cost $4.2 million each. If you take the number of vehicles they ordered for each route (35 for the 12-km long Sheppard; 23 for the 11-km long Finch, and 76 for the 19-km long Eglinton) then the costs of vehicle per kilometre are $12.3 million, $8.8 million, and $16.9 million respectively. So vehicle cost per kilometre seems to be about $10 million, bringing the rest of the LRT costs to about $50 million per km. I wonder how much cheaper it would be if you removed the electrical substations?

If Gilbert had done his analysis properly he'd have likely have concluded that he didn't have much of a story.

 

[Ed Drass]

FYI:

Hello Light Rail Transit Supporters!

The campaign to save the city-wide Light Rail Transit (LRT) network has picked up a lot of steam over the past few weeks! Groups are mobilizing from across the City to make their voices heard and let Mayor Ford know what they want.

On January 27, Councillor Mihevc will be hosting a meeting with www.TTCriders.ca and the Toronto Environmental Alliance that will provide information on the LRT plan and what we risk losing if Mayor Ford succeeds in cancelling Transit City.

I invite you to attend this meeting and hope that you will join our efforts to build the kind of Toronto that we will serve us all in the future.

Date: Thursday, January 27
Time: 7 p.m. to 9 p.m.
Location: Forest Hill Collegiate (cafeteria), 730 Eglinton Avenue West

*Update! Bus Routes in Jeopardy!
The TTC is deciding whether or not to cut service on forty-eight bus routes. For a list of all affected routes, visit www.TTCriders.ca. Tell the TTC in person how you feel about these cuts at their February 2 meeting (1 p.m.) at City Hall. To sign-up to make a deputation, email gso@ttc.ca. For more information, visit: http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Making_a_deputation.jsp.

For more facts read the Pembina Institute report "Making Tracks to Torontonians" available here: http://pubs.pembina.org/reports/making-tracks-toronto.pdf.

Sincerely,
Joe Mihevc

Concrete ways to get involved, organized by the Toronto Environmental Alliance:

Finch West Canvass:
When: Saturday January 22, 1p.m.
Where: Meet inside Finch TTC station, inside the bus terminal near the 36 Finch West bus
What to bring: pen, warm clothing, cell phone
Contact: Jacob louiej5@hotmail.com
On Saturday call: (647) 274 9082 otherwise email.

Scarborough Wards 43 and 44 Canvass:
When: Saturday January 22
Where: Morningside and Lawrence
Contact: Ashwin abmohan@gmail.com for time and meeting location

Eglinton West Canvass:
When: Sunday January 23, 1p.m.
Where: Meet at the Tim Horton's at Dufferin and Eglinton (on Eglinton, east of Dufferin)
Contact: Alison alison@torontoenvironment.org for more information

Phone supporters and encourage them to contact their councillors
The Toronto Environmental Alliance is hosting a phone bank to contact supporters and get them to take action to save light rail transit expansion. Please email tsering@torontoenvironment.org to sign up or fill in your availability on their website here: http://torontoenvironment.org/actioncentre/volunteer/currentpostings/phonebanksignup

 

[Dan416]

The possiblity of Rob Ford taking advice from the Toronto Environmental Alliance is close to nil, luckily.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The possiblity of Rob Ford taking advice from the Toronto Environmental Alliance is close to nil, luckily.

He is living in the 1960's. Thinking that the autombile is the way to go, and the underclass can use the subway where he can't see them.

 

[lafard]

He is living in the 1960's. Thinking that the autombile is the way to go, and the underclass can use the subway where he can't see them.

I am kind of hoping that the uproar over the fare hike thing might have convinced him that Joe Everyman relies just as much on the TTC as the underclass.

 

[Ed Drass]

The possiblity of Rob Ford taking advice from the Toronto Environmental Alliance is close to nil, luckily.

And yet Ford may need help to kill TC from councillors in affected wards, no? He can discount some dissent as being from citizens vaguely affiliated with an interest group, but it might be unwise to ignore everyone who writes or emails against the subways-or-nothing approach.

And would he take advice from the editorials of the Toronto Sun, perhaps?

snip:
"Advocating transit improvements for which there is no funding, whether it’s Ford for subways or Metrolinx for electrified GO Trains, is in fact a way of paying lip-service to addressing the issue of improving public transit, without actually addressing it.

Unfortunately, that’s what makes it so attractive to politicians, who care about four-year election cycles, not the long-term task of effective transit planning."

-ed