Transit City Plan

[Solid Snake]

Are you bringing the extra money to the table needed to fund both those projects? According to those signing the cheques, it ain't there now.

Maybe Torontonians should unite to demand BOTH (sheppard and Eglinton) projects instead of fighting among ourselves like in the media and on this board. This city has so much potential and fighting among ourselves is counter productive and it sucks.

Say what you want about Ford (not a fan of him and I know he's not pro-transit) but he's trying to keep his promise and according to the article, he seems ready to accept LRT on Eglinton but he keeps on fighting for Sheppard. This city needs and deserves BOTH

 

[GraphicMatt]

Hey Solid Snake, what are your ideas as far as how the TTC could cover the increased operating costs that would arise from a complete Sheppard subway (and its stations)?

 

[Solid Snake]

Hey Solid Snake, what are your ideas as far as how the TTC could cover the increased operating costs that would arise from a complete Sheppard subway (and its stations)?

You tell me,

- if we had the DRL we would have the same issue
- if we had the Yonge Extension we would have the same issue
-What about the Spadina extension

What point are you trying to make?
Let's not build anything?

 

[EnviroTO]

When did we build transportation infrastructure for the present?

Almost always infrastructure is built for the present plus leeway for growth. The LRT can not only handle today's capacity requirements on Sheppard... it can handle more than double that.

Imagine if they considered the 'now' when they built the Bloor and Yonge/Univeristy lines.

The did consider the 'now' at that point. They also considered the now when they originally put in the Yonge and Bloor streetcar lines which provided no obstacle to subway development when ridership warranted it because the streetcars were becoming inefficient at carrying the required capacity.

The amount of car traffic between between STC and Donmills along Shepperd and 401 should be a very good indication at the potential ridership to be had if a subway was available.

That is complete nonsense. People who are using a car on the 401 have a car and a convenient freeway at their disposal, have already decided taking a bus to Don Mills is too much effort, and likely are not on trips that originated near the subway stations that would exist or destined for subway stations that would exist. I don't notice a drastic difference in traffic at points just west of Yonge or just east of McCowan as compared to between those points. It isn't like traffic picks up at Yonge and drops off at McCowan. The 401 is the primary NAFTA route, a cross province expressway, and a cross GTA expressway... there are a ton of trips that would not be satisfied by a 6 station extension of the subway.

I'm hoping the compromise consists of Shepperd subway to STC, Eglinton crostown between Jane to Donmills (there literally is NOTHING between Donmills and say, Kennedy?).

p.s. There is no density along the Yonge and York U extensions, Finch West does not need an LRT, heck, even Eglinton East past Laird Ave lacks the density/ridership to justify an LRT.

At what ridership is a subway warranted, an LRT warranted, and a bus warranted? You want a Sheppard subway to STC... what is the ridership on Sheppard east of Don Mills, the ridership of Finch West, and the ridership of Eglinton East?

I'm hoping the compromise is replacing the SRT to SCC with a subway, an LRT to Malvern, starting the DRL, building LRT on Eglinton, and if LRT on Sheppard is so unpalatable then build BRT there.

 

[GraphicMatt]

You tell me,

- if we had the DRL we would have the same issue
- if we had the Yonge Extension we would have the same issue
-What about the Spadina extension

What point are you trying to make?
Let's not build anything?

Ridership projections on the DRL would likely be high enough that it wouldn't be a huge money suck. The other two examples would definitely suffer from the same thing, though I think they have higher projected ridership than Sheppard.

Regardless, the point I'm trying to make is that the TTC doesn't have an unlimited operating budget. We have to balance the city's transit needs versus capital costs AND operating costs.

Here's a scenario, for example: The Sheppard Subway is extended to STC. The TTC's operating budget goes up by a figure like 20 million a year. To cover that cost, the TTC raises fares by a quarter and cuts service on several bus routes across the city. Is that a net benefit for the city?

 

[Solid Snake]

Ridership projections on the DRL would likely be high enough that it wouldn't be a huge money suck. The other two examples would definitely suffer from the same thing, though I think they have higher projected ridership than Sheppard.

Regardless, the point I'm trying to make is that the TTC doesn't have an unlimited operating budget. We have to balance the city's transit needs versus capital costs AND operating costs.

Here's a scenario, for example: The Sheppard Subway is extended to STC. The TTC's operating budget goes up by a figure like 20 million a year. To cover that cost, the TTC raises fares by a quarter and cuts service on several bus routes across the city. Is that a net benefit for the city?

Making assumptions is easy. We don't know that yet.
Sheppard Subway is succesful and I have no doubt what happened between Yonge and Don Mills can be extended east

Densification along Sheppard Avenue East will increase taxe revenue (from a long term perspective)
Public Transit is an INVESTMENT with LONG TERM benefits

You are looking at this as an expense and there must be a retur on the INVESTMENT ASAP. That's not how you build public transit

 

[GraphicMatt]

It's how we run public transit, given there are no provincial or federal operating subsidies. The Sheppard subway is a limited success in that it has spurred some development along that corridor, but by no stretch of the imagination will it ever come close to 'paying for itself.'

 

[Asterix]

Sheppard Subway is succesful and I have no doubt what happened between Yonge and Don Mills can be extended east

So successful that the city mused openly about mothballing it a few years ago since it costs far more to operate than the revenues it generates.

Again, if you have infinite piles of money, then by all means, build and run relatively empty subways wherever you want.

But until you can put together a coherent plan for major infusions of transit funding from both a provincial and federal government that are battling deficits and have shown little interest in steady, long-term sustainable transit funding, it is a pipe dream.

By all means, lobby your provincial and federal representatives to change their tune, but few of the interested parties have any real motivation to cater to those demands. Either they have the Toronto vote in the bag, or they don't think they can pick up much, and certainly aren't about to attempt it when they'd face the wrath of their base in the rest of the country about dumping money on Toronto.

 

[reaperexpress]

It's how we run public transit, given there are no provincial or federal operating subsidies. The Sheppard subway is a limited success in that it has spurred some development along that corridor, but by no stretch of the imagination will it ever come close to 'paying for itself.'

Sorry to go off topic, but do we have any data about the profitability of different TTC routes? I found some for YRT, but I can't find any for the TTC.

 

[Dan416]

So successful that the city mused openly about mothballing it a few years ago since it costs far more to operate than the revenues it generates.

Again, if you have infinite piles of money, then by all means, build and run relatively empty subways wherever you want.

But until you can put together a coherent plan for major infusions of transit funding from both a provincial and federal government that are battling deficits and have shown little interest in steady, long-term sustainable transit funding, it is a pipe dream.

By all means, lobby your provincial and federal representatives to change their tune, but few of the interested parties have any real motivation to cater to those demands. Either they have the Toronto vote in the bag, or they don't think they can pick up much, and certainly aren't about to attempt it when they'd face the wrath of their base in the rest of the country about dumping money on Toronto.

IIRC they didn't mothball Sheppard because it would cost more to shut it down then to keep running it. So I think that is a moot point.

And can I now say I told you so about Eglinton??????

 

[GraphicMatt]

Sorry to go off topic, but do we have any data about the profitability of different TTC routes? I found some for YRT, but I can't find any for the TTC.

It's difficult to be objective about the numbers, as elimination of 'unprofitable' routes would inevitably make some currently profitable routes lose money. But if you look at documents like this one you can see a breakdown of the cost per day for various routes:

http://www3.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planning/service_improvements_2008.pdf (Appendix C)

 

[EnviroTO]

When did we build transportation infrastructure for the present?

Almost always infrastructure is built for the present plus leeway for growth. The LRT can not only handle today's capacity requirements on Sheppard... it can handle more than double that.

Imagine if they considered the 'now' when they built the Bloor and Yonge/Univeristy lines.

The did consider the 'now' at that point. They also considered the now when they originally put in the Yonge and Bloor streetcar lines which provided no obstacle to subway development when ridership warranted it because the streetcars were becoming inefficient at carrying the required capacity.

The amount of car traffic between between STC and Donmills along Shepperd and 401 should be a very good indication at the potential ridership to be had if a subway was available.

That is complete nonsense. People who are using a car on the 401 have a car and a convenient freeway at their disposal, have already decided taking a bus to Don Mills is too much effort, and likely are not on trips that originated near the subway stations that would exist or destined for subway stations that would exist. I don't notice a drastic difference in traffic at points just west of Yonge or just east of McCowan as compared to between those points. It isn't like traffic picks up at Yonge and drops off at McCowan. The 401 is the primary NAFTA route, a cross province expressway, and a cross GTA expressway... there are a ton of trips that would not be satisfied by a 6 station extension of the subway.

I'm hoping the compromise consists of Shepperd subway to STC, Eglinton crostown between Jane to Donmills (there literally is NOTHING between Donmills and say, Kennedy?).

p.s. There is no density along the Yonge and York U extensions, Finch West does not need an LRT, heck, even Eglinton East past Laird Ave lacks the density/ridership to justify an LRT.

At what ridership is a subway warranted, an LRT warranted, and a bus warranted? You want a Sheppard subway to STC... what is the ridership on Sheppard east of Don Mills, the ridership of Finch West, and the ridership of Eglinton East?

I'm hoping the compromise is replacing the SRT to SCC with a subway, an LRT to Malvern, starting the DRL, building LRT on Eglinton, and if LRT on Sheppard is so unpalatable then build BRT there.

 

[LowerBay]

Bloor streetcar was carrying 9000 per hour when the subway opened. I'd be interested in seeing your evidence-backed study showing even half that for Sheppard subways in the next 20 years.

I rode the Bloor streetcar in 1965, and it could very well have continued as a streetcar line. I take it you got that 9,000 number from Steve Munro's website. Well, Steve conveniently fails to mention that that 9,000 was at the peak point ONLY, and for maybe just 2 hours a day. When the subway opened in 1966, the loading on it was very LIGHT, and I recall everyone getting a seat, with seats to spare, even during rush hours. There were roughly 50,000 riders per day on the Bloor side, and another 50,000 on the Danforth side, for a total of 100,000. This is comparable to ridership on the Sheppard subway today (considering that it's only 1/2 of the length of the original Keele-Woodbine segment of the Bloor St. line).

By the way, ridership on BD is now 480,000 per day.

 

[EnviroTO]

Well, Steve conveniently fails to mention that that 9,000 was at the peak point ONLY, and for maybe just 2 hours a day.

That is usually the point at which the measurement is taken. A solution that can't handle the peak point isn't a solution at all.

When the subway opened in 1966, the loading on it was very LIGHT, as I recall everyone getting a seat, with seats to spare, even during rush hours.

That would be expected. Subways handle far more people so a switch from streetcar to subway would result in a subway that doesn't look that heavily used.

There were roughly 50,000 riders per day on the Bloor side, and another 50,000 on the Danforth side, for a total of 100,000.

What was the ridership when they extended past Main?

By the way, ridership on BD is now 480,000 per day.

And maybe the Sheppard Line will have that in 50 years if North York becomes as large a trip generator as downtown Toronto is now.

 

[LowerBay]

What was the ridership when they extended past Main?

A 30% increase -- 130,000 per day in 1969. Ridership on University decreased by 20% over that same period.