Transit City Plan

[gweed123]

No wonder Rob Ford doesn't remember Transit City ever going to a vote. Kinda hard to remember the vote when you wern't even there:

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2009.EX34.11

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

No wonder Rob Ford doesn't remember Transit City ever going to a vote. Kinda hard to remember the vote when you wern't even there:

http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2009.EX34.11

As were David Miller (architect of Transit City) and Adam Giambrone (TTC Chair). Both of whom you'd think would have had a vested interest in Transit City passing.

So my point is what's the point?

 

[SimonP]

As were David Miller (architect of Transit City) and Adam Giambrone (TTC Chair). Both of whom you'd think would have had a vested interest in Transit City passing.

So my point is what's the point?

The point is that Ford has been stating that “there was never a vote on council for Transit City, and if there was I’d like to see that,” but it seems that Transit City passed council by an overwhelming margin.

Even if Miller and Giambrone were absent, I'm pretty sure they knew about the vote. Adam certainly remembers. He just Tweeted from the Sudan that "There may be a legal way to escape a Council vote, but considering that Council voted 13 times on Transit City issues and changed the Official Plan, there is some moral imperative I think."

 

[gweed123]

As were David Miller (architect of Transit City) and Adam Giambrone (TTC Chair). Both of whom you'd think would have had a vested interest in Transit City passing.

So my point is what's the point?

Pretty much exactly what Simon said. Miller & Co never claimed that vote never took place. I'm not an outright supporter of TC, but I'm certainly not a supporter of Ford downright lying to the public. Manipulation and half truths are one thing, but saying something that is downright, 100% a lie is completely unacceptable, especially from a mayor. He can't just ignore reality when it doesn't suit his agenda.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Since it was Metrolinx that actually already placed an order for light rail vehicles for Transit City and not the City of Toronto or the Toronto Transit Commission, then Metrolinx can turn around and send those vehicles to Mississauga, Waterloo, Hamilton, or even Ottawa if it wants to, and leave nothing for Rob Ford’s subway. Then Toronto would be left on its own, high and dry with no vehicles (light rail or heavy rail) for Rob Ford’s subway. The vehicles would then become an additional cost.

 

[Eug]

They could do that. However, if Ford can come up with a workable plan that doesn't totally squander already-spent money (like with a plan that keeps underground LRT for Eglinton), then they'd be under very heavy pressure to provide those vehicles to Toronto. Cuz if they didn't, McGuinty would look like a total ass, and he'd lose the Toronto vote.

Of course, that depends on Ford coming up with a workable plan that includes LRT vehicles.

 

[rbt]

Since it was Metrolinx that actually already placed an order for light rail vehicles for Transit City and not the City of Toronto or the Toronto Transit Commission, then Metrolinx can turn around and send those vehicles to Mississauga, Waterloo, Hamilton, or even Ottawa if it wants to, and leave nothing for Rob Ford’s subway. Then Toronto would be left on its own, high and dry with no vehicles (light rail or heavy rail) for Rob Ford’s subway. The vehicles would then become an additional cost.

Mississauga, Waterloo, and Hamilton do not have the capital to build their LRT tracks. I have zero doubt that this time that reinstated transit city funding (Miller said McGuinty indicated that $4B could come back spring 2011) will be going to those locations and GO Transit at this point.

 

[gweed123]

Mississauga, Waterloo, and Hamilton do not have the capital to build their LRT tracks. I have zero doubt that this time that reinstated transit city funding (Miller said McGuinty indicated that $4B could come back spring 2011) will be going to those locations and GO Transit at this point.

They could have the capital if TC is scrapped and replaced by nothing (as Ford probably wants). Suddenly there's a bit over $6B up for grabs, and I'm sure Mississauga, Waterloo, Hamilton, and maybe even Ottawa (although the province would probably want to keep the money in the GTHA, seeing as how they've already pretty much shafted Ottawa) would be jumping over eachother to get some of that money.

 

[SimonP]

Thinking about the density maps on another thread, one way to evaluate routes is to compare only their middle sections, ignoring the terminuses and the sections downtown where they are mostly unloading passengers. This will give us a good measure of how useful it would be to build similar lines, or extend existing ones. It makes sense to exclude end stations as if you extend a line, that traffic will simply shift along the the new terminus, (such as what happened when Downsview was added above Wilson). The active current proposals are all for subways in largely residential areas, so excluding downtown areas that have far more jobs than residents also makes sense.

Here are how our existing routes measure up:

Bloor (Bathurst to Islington) - 25,000 riders per km
Danforth (Castle Frank to Warden) - 17,000 riders per km
Spadina (Dupont to Wilson) - 15,000 riders per km
Scarborough RT - (Lawrence East to McCowan) - 6,600 riders per km
Sheppard - (Bayview to Leslie) - 4,500 riders per km

 

[Paleo]

There's nothing preventing us from building a subway on Hurontario in the future. The BCA was between BRT and LRT. A subway in Mississauga along Hurontario would have to pay for itself immediately since Mississauga is unwilling to fork over that much in operating costs. I live in Mississauga, and I just don't see it as feasible. I'd rather see the Bloor line extended to Square One than try to pull off building a Hurontario subway.

With Sheppard, the only way to really "cut our losses" is to either A) do nothing or B) finish it. Converting it to LRT is simply a waste of hundreds of millions of dollars to decrease capacity. Makes no sense. And the optics of it are political suicide. At least if you extend it, then you give people more of a reason to travel it. As is, it's too short to be very useful unless you're using that corridor anyway. But for the hypothetical Scarborough student it makes a lot of sense to take a bus to STC and then subway it along Sheppard to Downsview aka future Sheppard West and transfer there to the Spadina line and head up to York University.

Spend $640 million to convert plus the lower operating and maintenance costs over the next 50 years or spend $2 billion for operations plus maintaining the tunnel structure over the 50?

 

[EnviroTO]

^ We can debate whether subway or LRT should be built east of Don Mills. In fact, each option has its pros and cons.

However, I can't see how spending $670 million to convert the existing subway to LRT is justifiable. It only saves 2 min by eliminating a same-platform transfer.

It isn't only to save 2 min by eliminating a transfer. LRT from Yonge to Morningside = $670M + $1.1B = $1.7B. Subway from Yonge to SCC = $4.1B. Savings on LRT option = $2.4B. You save more than 58%.

Converting to LRT saves $2.4 billion because the primary reason to build more subway on Sheppard is the existing subway. If that subway is converted to LRT then the LRT becomes the obvious choice west of Don Mills and $2.4 billion is saved as a result.

 

[Dan416]

I agree, get Eglinton and B-D to STC worked out, funded, and under construction, THEN worry about Sheppard. The only reason we're even talking about Sheppard now is because the brains behind TC inexplicably put Sheppard East at the top of the to-do list. Had it not been for that, Sheppard East would be just as overlooked as Finch West is right now.

+1

I'd give up anything on Sheppard for a BD extension and something on Eglinton anyday.

Might have something to do with the fact that there's already a subway line on Sheppard.

I think everyone would take upgrading the SRT to subway over the SELRT any day. If that's the choice we have to make, then I don't see much opposition to that. I foresee Eglinton surviving mostly unscathed. And Mississauga and Hamilton benefiting from the Transit City LRV order.

 

[nfitz]

It isn't only to save 2 min by eliminating a transfer. LRT from Yonge to Morningside = $670M + $1.1B = $1.7B. Subway from Yonge to SCC = $4.1B. Savings on LRT option = $2.4B. You save more than 58%.

Converting to LRT saves $2.4 billion because the primary reason to build more subway on Sheppard is the existing subway. If that subway is converted to LRT then the LRT becomes the obvious choice west of Don Mills and $2.4 billion is saved as a result.

The cost benefit analysis didn't show this, it showed that you use the existing subway, and built the rest as LRT. Converting to LRT, or continuing to build subway is of lesser benefit.

 

[nfitz]

I think everyone would take upgrading the SRT to subway over the SELRT any day.

If that was the question.

However the current plan is to build SRT to Malvern Town Centre ... or instead upgrade (upgrade??? entirely new alignment ...) the SRT to subway only to Scarborough Centre, at more than the cost than building to Malvern (which was already too expensive, so Phase 1 is only to Sheppard).

 

[Dan416]

If that was the question.

However the current plan is to build SRT to Malvern Town Centre ... or instead upgrade (upgrade??? entirely new alignment ...) the SRT to subway only to Scarborough Centre, at more than the cost than building to Malvern (which was already too expensive, so Phase 1 is only to Sheppard).

I'm not sure what your point is? Of course I'd take the subway upgrade to STC. And obviously it'll be on a new alignment. That's been discussed to death.