Paleo
Active Member
The correct answer is BRT. Subway envy prevailed.
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Transit City Plan
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
The correct answer is BRT. Subway envy prevailed.
MetroMan
Senior Member
The bottom line is that council is not filled with 44 lapdogs that will just agree to disastrous consequences to the city in terms of money lost, guaranteed provincial funding pulled and traffic chaos from inaction, just because the Mayor wants to do something he didn't think out properly before making promises.
Nor will Dalton McGuinty allow provincial money dedicated to improving transit infrastructure in Ontario to go wasted on cancellation lawsuits. Even Hudak isn't that stupid. This is not money the province has on hand. It's being borrowed. We're going in to debt to pay for desperately needed infrastructure improvements. To think that the province -- regardless of who's the Premier -- is going to take up debt to see marginal to no results is just deliriously crazy.
If Ford's team manages to put a plan together that will get Sheppard and Eglinton subways built and somehow finds ways around losing money to cancellation charges, then great, replace Transit City with a couple of subway lines instead. However, I'm highly skeptical of that, and justifiably so.
Nor will Dalton McGuinty allow provincial money dedicated to improving transit infrastructure in Ontario to go wasted on cancellation lawsuits. Even Hudak isn't that stupid. This is not money the province has on hand. It's being borrowed. We're going in to debt to pay for desperately needed infrastructure improvements. To think that the province -- regardless of who's the Premier -- is going to take up debt to see marginal to no results is just deliriously crazy.
If Ford's team manages to put a plan together that will get Sheppard and Eglinton subways built and somehow finds ways around losing money to cancellation charges, then great, replace Transit City with a couple of subway lines instead. However, I'm highly skeptical of that, and justifiably so.
Oh I don't think that a subway to STC could be delivered within 4 years. Far from it. That would basically have to be started from scratch. I'm saying that a small Sheppard extension to VP could be done within 4 years, or significantly completed by that point.
drum118
Superstar
What with this "gravy train" Ford talks about as he is planning on getting on the "Pork Train", while at the same time, giving "First Class" for 12% of the ridership well 42% get 3rd class bus service since there is no money for them at the end of the day.
Unless Fordie babie plans on raising taxes to cover this "Pork Train", the government is sure not going to do it.
You are looking at 1 to 2 years for the EA to do Sheppard and another could of years to do the design work. The idea to take a subway to STC is a bunch of "BS" to suite a bunch of "laziest" riders would don't like doing transferring and taking an extra 10 minutes to get there. By the time you get through the EA and planning process, Sheppard LRT would be in operation.
Again, making this change is going to force riders to wait another 6 years before seeing some improvement and only if you live west of Kennedy Road. The Malvern group is told you are 3rd class folks and maybe you will see real service before you die.
I have no problem upgrading the Eglinton line as well taking the BD to STC.
What is clearly shown and it starts back in 1908, is the building of the DRL from Queen to Don Mills and Sheppard. This has more important needs over any subway on Sheppard.
Politics has screw transit since 1908.
Toronto has been great for wasting money, so what will change under Forbie?
Unless Fordie babie plans on raising taxes to cover this "Pork Train", the government is sure not going to do it.
You are looking at 1 to 2 years for the EA to do Sheppard and another could of years to do the design work. The idea to take a subway to STC is a bunch of "BS" to suite a bunch of "laziest" riders would don't like doing transferring and taking an extra 10 minutes to get there. By the time you get through the EA and planning process, Sheppard LRT would be in operation.
Again, making this change is going to force riders to wait another 6 years before seeing some improvement and only if you live west of Kennedy Road. The Malvern group is told you are 3rd class folks and maybe you will see real service before you die.
I have no problem upgrading the Eglinton line as well taking the BD to STC.
What is clearly shown and it starts back in 1908, is the building of the DRL from Queen to Don Mills and Sheppard. This has more important needs over any subway on Sheppard.
Politics has screw transit since 1908.
Toronto has been great for wasting money, so what will change under Forbie?
Asterix
Active Member
And with the election, I really don't think a new municipal government would touch Eglinton. Why? Because there's provincial dollars in there too. The city knows how finicky the province is with giving money for infrastructure projects (just look at the original Eglinton subway, the money was pulled after construction had already started). The city wouldn't dare mess with a project that the province has their hand in, especially if they want to go back to them in a few years for more money for more projects. The projects that are only city funded I think are fair game, but I don't think Eglinton is.
SimonP
Active Member
Politically, I don't see any of this getting decided until after next year's provincial election. It would likely not be until the first Hudak budget in early 2012 that any firm plan would be made. Unfortunately that's likely to be a cuts and austerity budget, so I wouldn't count on any pledges for transit. If McGuinty somehow gets reelected, the Liberals would read it as an endorsement and likely keep Metrolinx going on the same course.
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
Maybe Ford isn't being motivated by a desire for subways but rather by a fear that new surface LRT routes will get in the way of automobile traffic.
Except that the province ISN'T finicky with infrastructure spending. Heck, they're spending $55 billion over the next 25 years! That's the exact OPPOSITE of finicky! It's not like Metrolinx is going to say "fine, we're going to completely ignore Toronto then. All the money goes to the 905". The City-Province relationship is much different than the Prov-Fed relationship.
jje1000
Senior Member
I'd really wish that newspapers start printing quotes as a whole, instead of little bits and pieces.
Anyways, Stintz on the Sheppard East LRT:
http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/11/30/16376901.html
Anyways, Stintz on the Sheppard East LRT:
http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/11/30/16376901.html
Asterix
Active Member
And the feds haven't been throwing around talk of spending billions? (Note that that is talk, just like the province spending $55 billion over the next 25 years is just talk right now, given how quickly they started chipping away at TC funds.)
If the province has 'committed' the funds to build most of Eglinton and design and other prep work has progressed to where they are just about ready to put shovels in the ground, then wouldn't it make sense for the city to carry on and actually build the line instead of starting over with more studies, planning and hoping the province doesn't change it's mind about following through with the funding? Wouldn't we (ie Torontonians) feel rather silly four years from now, having spent another hundred million dollars on more paperwork without any shovels being put to work, only to find out there isn't the money for a subway line after all?
Eglinton is either going to be built as a cross-town LRT or it won't be built for another 15 - 20 years, if that. Any politician who wants to choose the latter in the vain hopes a subway is going to magically appear, is going to be facing an awful angry electorate, fed up with governmental waste.
allabootmatt
Senior Member
Nothing in there about Eglinton, which is the big question mark. It seems unlikely that Ford would have made Stintz TTC chair if he were really prepared to give Eglinton nothing, given her identification with that project. Then again, it seemed considerably more unlikely that he would be elected, so go figure.
Surely Ford's people realize that calling the underground portion of the Eglinton line anything but a ''subway'' is basically an argument about the precise dimensions of rolling stock, and will protect it accordingly. But who the hell knows.
Surely Ford's people realize that calling the underground portion of the Eglinton line anything but a ''subway'' is basically an argument about the precise dimensions of rolling stock, and will protect it accordingly. But who the hell knows.
That's a fair assessment of Ford himself. However, that's logic does not extend to the majority of those who favour subway expansion. The majority of those who favour subway expansion do so because they see it as a worthwhile investment in rapid transit. Being pro-subway has very little to do with your opinion of cars. I'm pro subway, yet for my entire time in Toronto, I did not own a car, nor did I have convenient access to one.
Being pro-subway does not make you pro-car. Nor does being pro-car make you pro-subway. Being pro-car makes you more likely to be pro-subway than pro-LRT, but it's even more likely that being pro-car would make you anti-transit in general.
The funds for TC were cut back to what the original estimate for the project was ($8B). What was cut was the delta between the initial estimate and the $15B estimate that came out before the funding cut announcement. TC itself wasn't cut, the escalation was. If you don't want your funding cut, don't low-ball your estimates by nearly half of what they should have been.
Did I say the Eglinton project should be cut? No. I said the eastern at-grade portion should be cut in order to help fund the subway extension to STC. I have no problem with the tunnel portion remaining as-is.
The Eglinton tunnel is a subway. The Eglinton Line is NOT a subway. Having a line 1/2 underground and 1/2 at-grade makes the underground portion a subway, but it does not make the line a subway.
rbt
Senior Member
If Eglinton doesn't have rails on it (Toronto Rocket or LRT) within a few years it may well be 100 years before anything here is attempted again.
No politician is going to throw their weight/legacy behind a project that was cancelled twice after construction began until it is ancient history.
If rails aren't on Eglinton by 2020, push for a St. Clair subway in 2040 because it will be far more likely to occur.