M II A II R II K
Senior Member
Whether or not it's subway or LRT, being off of the road is the main thing. If we added long LRT lines off the road like in San Diego or Minneapolis that would be great!
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Transit City Plan
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
js97
Senior Member
^^ I'm sure it's lovely riding the T3 in Paris on a spring aftertoon.. while on vaction and no hurry to get to work.
How about when it's minus 10 with a foot of snow outside and you're just trying to come home after 8 hours at the desk?
I guess we'll see. Giambrone has to take a cab three times a week, miller probably takes the street car once a year for optics. These are not the people that should be suggesting how to transport people. If you ask those that take th shepperd subway and bus to scarborough, I'm sure every one of them will say Subway.
but I guess that's a mute point now. We'll have to see once it's built.
How is the progress anyways? A friend of mind says their still working on the parking station at the 'GO' station by kennedy and shepperd. He said it appears to be 'very little' progress..
Min. 1 year late & 50% over budget. Any takers?
How about when it's minus 10 with a foot of snow outside and you're just trying to come home after 8 hours at the desk?
I guess we'll see. Giambrone has to take a cab three times a week, miller probably takes the street car once a year for optics. These are not the people that should be suggesting how to transport people. If you ask those that take th shepperd subway and bus to scarborough, I'm sure every one of them will say Subway.
but I guess that's a mute point now. We'll have to see once it's built.
How is the progress anyways? A friend of mind says their still working on the parking station at the 'GO' station by kennedy and shepperd. He said it appears to be 'very little' progress..
Min. 1 year late & 50% over budget. Any takers?
Ansem
Banned
I love LRT as well...
You will hardly find anti-LRT here...
I really like them...not on Eglinton or Sheppard.
You want to put them on Lawrence, Wilson/York Mills/Ellesmere, Jane, Steeles, Finch, Kipling, Islington, Dufferin, Don Mills...
be my guess
Sheppard and Eglinton is retarded.
EnviroTO
Senior Member
The guy is saying that the Bloor line doesn't have enough development, that the Spadina extension is a waste, and that Eglinton doesn't have enough density to require a subway. You are really jumping to conclusions that this guy would support Sheppard extensions. He is against the streetcar tunnel into Union which is packed. People who believe cancelling Transit City would lead to better transit are seriously fooling themselves.
Fresh Start
Banned
Btw, if it took the TTC 5 years to retrofit a preexisting streetcar ROW down St Clair, we can put to rest the silly notion that any of these Transit City lines will be available for public service in any less of a timeframe than a tunnel bored subway which would have minimal impact upon the streetlife above. It's all dependent on the efficiency of TTC employ as to how fast these lines are completed. And Eglinton has already been subject to several subway EAs and even had a tunnel dug out then later filled-in. What more of a delay would there be besides anti-subway lobbyists trying to tie up the process?
Fresh Start
Banned
Your level of enthusiasm is both inspirational but yet tragic at the same time. Short of dismantling the entire TTC hierarchy and starting anew, I don't think that the current modus operandi will ever get a nack for route management, by far the TTC's worst problem. If an exclusive ROW such as a subway tunnel these concerns are mititgated because whether the train's on-time or not is largely within the driver's control. However surface transit in the absence of an exclusive ROw just too many variables working against it in a Toronto context for me personally to have realistic expectations of time/speed advantages. Rapid can only exist in exclusive ROW. However, that's not to say that here too challeneges can't emerge when trying to mix both on-street and grade-separated ROW operations. 510 Spadina has many issues facing it particularly the bottleneck of trams that show in the Bloor tunnel at any given time and have to stand and wait to gain entry to the platform area. The issue of bunching/stalling is very real and at 5 minute headways, this can pose a problem for the reliability of trams showing up in the Eglinton tunnel. We don't want to see these mistakes repeated elsewhere in the city what going on across the Queen-Lakeshore corridor. Never has a street with so many shopping districts has been left with such infrequent, unreliable service. Be greateful if your destination is nearby a north-south feeder to the B-D subway if travelling through its neighbourhoods because it's a hit and miss awaiting the 501 car.
The TTC needs to fix the cracks and leaks in its vessel now before talking about adding on a new deck. Even Steve Munro, whom many think of as the envisage of Transit City, is now admitting on his website that there's several operational flaws with the recent 512 rebuild. Europe we are not. What we are good at is metro subways and many people clamor to live or work nearby one because of that fact. Ergo subways will attract more TOD than ever imaginable with LRT.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
That is completely false and even the TTC noted that ridership had grown enormously just one year after the line opened (and it's gone up by at least 33% since then, partially due to massive redevelopments).
Richard Gilbert is a moron and doesn't have a clue what he's ranting about. He doesn't support spending any money on transit infrastructure, any time, anywhere, for any reason, unless it is operationally profitable and if the line is built by Santa's elves. Can anyone imagine the Spadina streetcar without the subway loops? Frightening! People like Gilbert moan that the Spadina line would have been better if it skipped Yorkdale and York University and ran underneath...what? A bunch of houses and strip malls that still would not have been redeveloped? That's the real other option. Sure, you might have squeezed a few more riders out of Bathurst's highrises or the houses along Dufferin, but you'd lose a lot more rides by not serving the city's 2nd biggest mall and university - which are far more important than "density."
At least opposing voices are going on the public record. This could be very important in 20 or 30 years when light rail is no longer a trendy fad - and it's not like all proposed and future transit projects are going to be completed in the next few years. The pendulum is swinging towards LRT lines now largely because it swung away from LRT lines a generation ago.
Dan416
Senior Member
That guy had me until he mentioned the underground streetcar tunnels. And then the Spadina line. And then Sheppard too! Yes, Spadina hasn't caused the redevelopment along the line that you'd hope, but looking at where it runs it's easy to see why. And Sheppard has been a success at increasing ridership. So he is against Transit City, but for all the wrong reasons.
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
Gah I read that article yesterday. Is this person totally out of it, or has he just never taken the TTC and believes we shouldn't be wasting money where we could be widening roads or building highways?
1/2. Actually, it kind of does. LRT does not replace subway in any way shape or form. You can't have several much needed subway routes and just say "LRT'll do the job good enough and it looks pretty too!!" If you look at most of the other cities that use LRT (especially the hallowed European /ones that do,) you'll realize that LRT is not used as a subway replacement! LRT is used as a supplementary transit service, essentially acting as a super-bus thing for getting people to the already dense subway and rail networks.
If you're talking about places like Edmonton and Calgary, I hate to break it to you, but that's not the LRT we're talking about! Edmonton and Calgary both use almost fully grade separated LRT lines that run as metro systems.
And if you're talking about Pheonix and other American cities, I'll remind you that these LRTs have done nothing to stem car dependence in them. Any "success" by LA's LRTs has to be taken with the fact that they're a metropolis of over 15 million people, of whom a vast majority are fully car dependent. In reality, LA's LRTs have actually done minimally. A good start for the city, but not as much as could be done, and should not be a basis for doing the same in Toronto.
3. "Subways are more expensive because we like to build them expensively, therefore LRT is better." Does this logic even make sense to you? The TTC could easily build subways using reasonably-sized stations and alternative building methods, which could easily put the cost of subway at $200m/km with TBMing, and even lower if you're going to elevate, trench or cut and cover some bits, which could easily be done on a route like Eglinton.
4. Yes I have, and it's very pretty. But I notice that a lot of people use Paris' subways too! In fact, it might just be harder because it's underground, but it'd seem like tonnes of more people use Paris' subway than the LRTs!
It's very pretty, but shouldn't aesthetics come second to... you know, actually making a network that gets people around as efficiently as possible? I agree, it'll be nice to have some LRT along some corridors in the city and region (not that TC is going to be making them particularly pretty,) but it'll also be nice to be able to get around the city quickly in a system that can handle the city's needs.
6. It seems pretty obvious that you're just going for the longshot right now. I don't think that a tourist going along a Sheppard LRT would suddenly get out and walk into a nice looking shop they saw while going by. I certainly haven't done that in my LRT travels. If you're talking about inner-city LRT like maybe on Queen or something, yes, totally! There've been a few times I've gotten off the Queen streetcar to check out a cool shop. But when you're talking about LRTs far flung out into the suburbs, it's quite unlikely that any tourist would be riding it in the first place, and if they were it'd be for a specific reason.
The business one just seems kind of silly to me. Do you know of anyone who actively looks for clients by driving down a street in search of stores to press into clientship? If so, then yes, he can just take the bus anyways. If he'd rather look for those shops than be whisked along in a subway, then he can easily do that.
What fun
1/2. Actually, it kind of does. LRT does not replace subway in any way shape or form. You can't have several much needed subway routes and just say "LRT'll do the job good enough and it looks pretty too!!" If you look at most of the other cities that use LRT (especially the hallowed European /ones that do,) you'll realize that LRT is not used as a subway replacement! LRT is used as a supplementary transit service, essentially acting as a super-bus thing for getting people to the already dense subway and rail networks.
If you're talking about places like Edmonton and Calgary, I hate to break it to you, but that's not the LRT we're talking about! Edmonton and Calgary both use almost fully grade separated LRT lines that run as metro systems.
And if you're talking about Pheonix and other American cities, I'll remind you that these LRTs have done nothing to stem car dependence in them. Any "success" by LA's LRTs has to be taken with the fact that they're a metropolis of over 15 million people, of whom a vast majority are fully car dependent. In reality, LA's LRTs have actually done minimally. A good start for the city, but not as much as could be done, and should not be a basis for doing the same in Toronto.
3. "Subways are more expensive because we like to build them expensively, therefore LRT is better." Does this logic even make sense to you? The TTC could easily build subways using reasonably-sized stations and alternative building methods, which could easily put the cost of subway at $200m/km with TBMing, and even lower if you're going to elevate, trench or cut and cover some bits, which could easily be done on a route like Eglinton.
4. Yes I have, and it's very pretty. But I notice that a lot of people use Paris' subways too! In fact, it might just be harder because it's underground, but it'd seem like tonnes of more people use Paris' subway than the LRTs!
It's very pretty, but shouldn't aesthetics come second to... you know, actually making a network that gets people around as efficiently as possible? I agree, it'll be nice to have some LRT along some corridors in the city and region (not that TC is going to be making them particularly pretty,) but it'll also be nice to be able to get around the city quickly in a system that can handle the city's needs.
6. It seems pretty obvious that you're just going for the longshot right now. I don't think that a tourist going along a Sheppard LRT would suddenly get out and walk into a nice looking shop they saw while going by. I certainly haven't done that in my LRT travels. If you're talking about inner-city LRT like maybe on Queen or something, yes, totally! There've been a few times I've gotten off the Queen streetcar to check out a cool shop. But when you're talking about LRTs far flung out into the suburbs, it's quite unlikely that any tourist would be riding it in the first place, and if they were it'd be for a specific reason.
The business one just seems kind of silly to me. Do you know of anyone who actively looks for clients by driving down a street in search of stores to press into clientship? If so, then yes, he can just take the bus anyways. If he'd rather look for those shops than be whisked along in a subway, then he can easily do that.
CDL.TO
Moderator
Canada Line:
Average daily ridership: 100,000
Length: 19.2 km
Ridership per km = 5,200
Generally accepted interpretation: MASSIVE RUNAWAY SUCCESS EXCEEDING ALL PROJECTIONS
Sheppard Subway:
Average daily ridership: 46,000
Length: 5.5km
Ridership per km = 8,400
Generally accepted interpretation: MASSIVE USELESS FAILURE PROVING THAT WE SHOULD NEVER BUILD METROS EVER AGAIN
Average daily ridership: 100,000
Length: 19.2 km
Ridership per km = 5,200
Generally accepted interpretation: MASSIVE RUNAWAY SUCCESS EXCEEDING ALL PROJECTIONS
Sheppard Subway:
Average daily ridership: 46,000
Length: 5.5km
Ridership per km = 8,400
Generally accepted interpretation: MASSIVE USELESS FAILURE PROVING THAT WE SHOULD NEVER BUILD METROS EVER AGAIN
Asterix
Active Member
a tunnel bored subway which would have minimal impact upon the streetlife above.
"Minimal impact" might not be the most accurate term considering that the stations themselves are cut-and-cover boxes that certainly have more than a minimal impact on the surrounding surface (which most likely happens to be right at a busy intersection).
Asterix
Active Member
Minor semantics nitpick, but saying Munro "is now admitting" doesn't quite seem correct given that in my time following his blog he certainly doesn't come off as a constantly pro-TTC supporter or one who blindly raves about anything and everything they've done. I don't recall him ever trying to assert that the St Clair ROW implementation was anything to write home about (everything from the design process, the construction with multiple utlitilities involved and the management of the completed line).
From my read of his writings, I get the impression that in an ideal world he'd love to have subways here, there and everywhere. But he's also grounded in the real world in realizing that most potential routes do not have anywhere near the demand necessary to support a subway solution and given the limited capital funds, they are better spent providing more service to more people than subway service to a smaller number.
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
I think it'll be 3.5 years late, but only 33% over budget.
This is not an LRT problem, however, but a city management and TTC problem. Delays and budget escalations would plague a subway project too.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
The Environmental Project Report for the Etobicoke-Finch West LRT should be available for a 30-day review period starting March 24, 2010.
kettal
Banned
Here's hoping they give it to a design-build firm with a contract that penalizes missed deadlines.