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Transit City Gauge

But if standard gauge is used, won't it prompt more vendors to bid for future TC vehicle contracts?
 
Rainforest said:
But if standard gauge is used, won't it prompt more vendors to bid for future TC vehicle contracts?
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No. The track gauge issue is INCREDIBLY minor when it comes to buying vehicles. Each wheel is only 1 3/16 inch further out than with standard track gauge.
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Exactly. It's far more important in my mind to maintain interoperability between all local trackage. Sure, TC vehicles won't do service on city lines, but why cut off options for nothing?
 
What about Hamilton, will their LRT lines be standard gauge or TTC gauge?

Of course, no LRT route will run from Toronto all the way to Hamilton, but interoperability between the adjacent systems will be helpfull: Toronto / Mississauga, Mississauga / Oakville etc. Actually, that might be more important than interoperability between the Toronto's legacy system and the new system.

So, if Toronto selects TTC gauge for the new routes, it is desirable that Hamilton uses it, too; and vice versa.
 
Rainforest said:
What about Hamilton, will their LRT lines be standard gauge or TTC gauge?
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I would assume that Metrolinx will use the same gauge for all of the new projects. The question is whether they are going to abandon TTC gauge.
 
Rainforest said:
What about Hamilton, will their LRT lines be standard gauge or TTC gauge?

Of course, no LRT route will run from Toronto all the way to Hamilton, but interoperability between the adjacent systems will be helpfull: Toronto / Mississauga, Mississauga / Oakville etc. Actually, that might be more important than interoperability between the Toronto's legacy system and the new system.

So, if Toronto selects TTC gauge for the new routes, it is desirable that Hamilton uses it, too; and vice versa.
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No it really isn't. There is little cost advantage in bulk buying. Even Calgary and Edmonton with identical rolling stock don't purchase together. Only once has rolling stock on one system been switched to the other (and they were special prototype cars from Siemens). Cities buying a 4 LRVs for a streetcar system get the same price as a city buying 100. only when you're not buying off the shelf, like with the replacement streetcars, does it really matter, since the engineering costs are spread over more units.

The transit city LRVs will be pretty standard fare.
 
Darwinkgo said:
Cities buying a 4 LRVs for a streetcar system get the same price as a city buying 100.
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I doubt this. Bus manufacturers give discounts (that's why Ontario now has a Metrolinx-led consortium for small operators to buy buses through). Other businesses do as well, simply because 100 vehicles in an order is a longer term revenue stream than 4 vehicles. Why should LRV vendors be any different?

Can you prove this statement?

At any rate, the argument made above wasn't about cost, it was about allowing for possible interoperability if needed. Given that gauge is a trivial cost item, it seems silly to remove future flexibility when it's not necessary.
 
Definitely they should stick to TTC gauge. That is the dominant one. It doesn't make sense to start a whole new separate system and fleet. I think standard gauge would actually make expanding service harder because of more expensive vehicles and incompatible tracks. I agree that the 905 should use TTC gauge as well, if not Hamilton, then at least the ones in Mississauga.
 
I personally don't think it makes much sense to use TTC gauge outside of Toronto and its immediate surroundings (ie, not Waterloo, Hamilton, or Ottawa). Why pay the additional cost if the systems will never interact? Also by sticking to standard gague, you retain the possibility to transport LRT vehicles on existisng rail lines and to utilize currently underused ones (Ottawa's O-Train).
Whether or not it makes sense to continue to use TTC gague for new projects within the GTA is a completely different story that I'd rather not get into.
 
DavidH said:
I doubt this. Bus manufacturers give discounts (that's why Ontario now has a Metrolinx-led consortium for small operators to buy buses through). Other businesses do as well, simply because 100 vehicles in an order is a longer term revenue stream than 4 vehicles. Why should LRV vendors be any different?

Can you prove this statement?

At any rate, the argument made above wasn't about cost, it was about allowing for possible interoperability if needed. Given that gauge is a trivial cost item, it seems silly to remove future flexibility when it's not necessary.
Click to expand...

Utah Trax: 3.59 million per LRV, order size: 77 [Source]
Trimet Maxx: 3.57 million per LRV, order size: 22 [Source]
Denver RTD: 3.35 million per LRV, order size: 55 [Source]

As you can see, the price is within a well defined range, and does not react to scale. The differences in price likely changes due to the system's different requirements or internal outfit.
 
Am I having deja vu? I could have sworn we've already had this thread several times since Transit City was announced...
 
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