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Toronto's and Province's New 12.4B Eglinton/SRT/Sheppard Plan

We aren't going to get a comprehensive transport plan out of the Fords, are we? It sounds like even if they have a strategy for filling in those 'missing' road links, etc., we might not see anything in public -- just piecemeal announcements.

I wonder if there's any point in asking the head of Works...

-Ed
 
CDL.TO said:
Damn straight. FFS. Corridor protection has been one of our greatest failings when it comes to planning in the Toronto region.
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But we want tunnels! Sell the land for $50M and build a tunnel to the airport for $5B. Since 50 is larger than 5 we pocket 45!
 
It should be ROW after JANE anyways... People want to fault Transit City LRT lines saying it cost so much... Well really it was just the underground section that costed alot... At Surface ROW is the cheapest solution to our problems that is RAIL based... (NOT a EXPRESS BUS)
 
sixrings said:
It should be ROW after JANE anyways... People want to fault Transit City LRT lines saying it cost so much... Well really it was just the underground section that costed alot... At Surface ROW is the cheapest solution to our problems that is RAIL based... (NOT a EXPRESS BUS)
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The median ROW option is not eliminated by this decision, as some space remains available to widen the road and add LRT lanes.

Gone is the option of side-of-road / trench alignment. Now it is either expensive tunneling, or street-median ROW.
 
I hear people say alot that all transit in the future must be underground because FORD will only have it that way and that TC is dead... That statement assumes ( a big assumption) that FORD will win another election... However I would suggest that if Gas continues to soar and traffic hits more gridlock and other citys are succesful with LRT and SHEPPARD Subway doesnt have shovels in the ground, FORD will lose the next election... He cant cut the gravy and hes making the city worse by crippling transit... People will beg for TC and it will be the easiest thing for the next mayor to revive...
 
sixrings said:
It should be ROW after JANE anyways... People want to fault Transit City LRT lines saying it cost so much... Well really it was just the underground section that costed alot... At Surface ROW is the cheapest solution to our problems that is RAIL based... (NOT a EXPRESS BUS)
Click to expand...

Trenching is only moderately more expensive than in-median, and it provides a much higher capacity, as well as improved speed, and the ability to use ATC.
 
I understand trenching is not more expensive and in this case I might agree... But as a whole ROW is the cheapest and best RAIL solution.... Im so frusterated with FInch being cancelled and sheppard probably never getting built... Whatever happened to 1 in a hand is better then 2 in a bush.... We are HOPING PRAYING DREAMING for better transit when we essentially killed something that was Shovel ready... Some people will say that the PRovince had already cut some of the lines... But I am sure with pressure those lines would have been funded if they wanted to be re elected... I would rather have had ROB FORD advocate for the entire transit city getting constructed (even if it has flaws) then to scrap everything and hope we get two underground lines...
 
sixrings said:
I hear people say alot that all transit in the future must be underground because FORD will only have it that way and that TC is dead... That statement assumes ( a big assumption) that FORD will win another election... However I would suggest that if Gas continues to soar and traffic hits more gridlock and other citys are succesful with LRT and SHEPPARD Subway doesnt have shovels in the ground, FORD will lose the next election... He cant cut the gravy and hes making the city worse by crippling transit... People will beg for TC and it will be the easiest thing for the next mayor to revive...
Click to expand...

He might lose the next election, but not over his (mis)handling of transit expansion projects. If the whole city budget gets seriously screwed and he has to cut services across the board - including but not limited to existing transit routes - then the voters will turn against him. But transit expansion (or lack of it) alone will register with only a small minority of voters.

And even if he is gone in 2014, the Richview strip will be permanently lost for transit by that time. Actually, those seemingly minor property deals in Etobicoke are more important than his push to get Eglinton LRT tunneled through the Golden Mile. The latter might be reconsidered, the former can't.
 
sixrings said:
I understand trenching is not more expensive and in this case I might agree... But as a whole ROW is the cheapest and best RAIL solution.... Im so frusterated with FInch being cancelled and sheppard probably never getting built... Whatever happened to 1 in a hand is better then 2 in a bush.... We are HOPING PRAYING DREAMING for better transit when we essentially killed something that was Shovel ready... Some people will say that the PRovince had already cut some of the lines... But I am sure with pressure those lines would have been funded if they wanted to be re elected... I would rather have had ROB FORD advocate for the entire transit city getting constructed (even if it has flaws) then to scrap everything and hope we get two underground lines...
Click to expand...

Cutting Eglinton West had nothing to do with Rob Ford. That decision was made almost a year before he was even elected. Also, Eglinton West was not 'shovel ready'. They had done preliminary engineering. It was still a good 3 years away from being 'shovel ready' when it was cut.

And if it's only marginally more expensive to trench as opposed to do in-median, why wouldn't you do it? Higher capacity, higher degree of grade-separation, and lower impact of traffic interaction (both car delays on transit and transit delays on cars). I honestly don't see why in this case someone would favour in-median over grade-separating (or heck, even at-grade) through the Richview Corridor. Redesigning the entire roadway in order to accommodate in-median would not be cheap, and would create a headache on Eglinton for years.
 
gweed123 said:
Cutting Eglinton West had nothing to do with Rob Ford. That decision was made almost a year before he was even elected. Also, Eglinton West was not 'shovel ready'. They had done preliminary engineering. It was still a good 3 years away from being 'shovel ready' when it was cut.

And if it's only marginally more expensive to trench as opposed to do in-median, why wouldn't you do it? Higher capacity, higher degree of grade-separation, and lower impact of traffic interaction (both car delays on transit and transit delays on cars). I honestly don't see why in this case someone would favour in-median over grade-separating (or heck, even at-grade) through the Richview Corridor. Redesigning the entire roadway in order to accommodate in-median would not be cheap, and would create a headache on Eglinton for years.
Click to expand...

I think we all may be forgetting some of the points of Transit City (not to be totally for it or against it). But the portion west of Black Creek is not terribly dense and I don't know if ridership warrants a fully grade separated LRT in this area. While we have now turned the easter leg of this route into a true rapid transit line (STC to Yonge and Eg) there isn't as much of a push to do this past say Jane. At best only every 2nd or 3rd train would head past Jane on the fully completed route. The only issue is a connection to the airport on Eglinton. Will this ever happen? Doesn't look too promising with the strange routing originally proposed. In addition tunneling and in median construction will both disrupt Eglinton, they will need to open the street at all stations for tunneling which is still very disruptive.

I guess what i'm saying is i'm glad the eastern leg is underground, did it need to be, probably not, but now we have a new east-west route connecting two major nodes. But in the west, why not save the money, build this portion on-grade to meet expected ridership for the next 20 years (prefer not in media) and spend our money in a more in demand area.
 
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TransitPolicyChanger said:
I think we all may be forgetting some of the points of Transit City (not to be totally for it or against it). But the portion west of Black Creek is not terribly dense and I don't know if ridership warrants a fully grade separated LRT in this area. While we have now turned the easter leg of this route into a true rapid transit line (STC to Yonge and Eg) there isn't as much of a push to do this past say Jane. At best only every 2nd or 3rd train would head past Jane on the fully completed route. The only issue is a connection to the airport on Eglinton. Will this ever happen? Doesn't look too promising with the strange routing originally proposed. In addition tunneling and in median construction will both disrupt Eglinton, they will need to open the street at all stations for tunneling which is still very disruptive.

I guess what i'm saying is i'm glad the eastern leg is underground, did it need to be, probably not, but now we have a new east-west route connecting two major nodes. But in the west, why not save the money, build this portion on-grade to meet expected ridership for the next 20 years (prefer not in media) and spend our money in a more in demand area.
Click to expand...

Grade-separated does not necessarily mean underground through. A trench (like the one on the Yonge line between Rosedale and Davisville) would cost only marginally more than at-grade. Why spend so much on infrastructure that will meet the demand for 20 years, when we can spend only a fraction more on infrastructure that will be good for the next 75+ years?

I just don't see why people are so insistent on in-median when there's a perfectly good transit corridor RIGHT BESIDE IT that can host a multitude of different transit options that DON'T involve ripping up all of Eglinton Avenue. It just makes no sense to me.
 
gweed123 said:
A trench (like the one on the Yonge line between Rosedale and Davisville) would cost only marginally more than at-grade.
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You keep saying "marginally more" over and over but that doesn't make it true. What's your definition of marginally more? 5% higher? 10%? 15%? Or 75%? 125%?

Would a trenched Richview be cheaper than a bored tunnel? Absolutely. Could the additional cost versus the old at-grade option be outweighed by the higher quality service it enables? Quite possibly. But I don't think you do the proposal any favours by jumping to the conclusion that excavating several kilometers of corridor 20-plus feet down and building overhead bridges for cross-streets is going to be a couple of extra pennies on the dollar.

(Not disagreeing with the idea that the corridor is worth protecting, by the way. Just suggesting we shouldn't oversell this.)
 
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